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Thread: (R-P312>DF27>ZZ12>FGC23083). William de Duglis, Earl of Morton/Freskyn de Moravia

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    (R-P312>DF27>ZZ12>FGC23083). William de Duglis, Earl of Morton/Freskyn de Moravia

    I don't know if anyone else would find this interesting, but there are 31 kits under this heading at the Douglas Dna Project. Most claim descent from William de Duglis, but a few are claiming descent from Freskyn de Moravia. Freskin was a Flemish nobleman who settled in Scotland during the reign of King David I, creating the Murray and Sutherland families. It seems there is some muddy waters about the connection between Freskyn de Moravia, or Moray and the Douglas family of Moray. I just thought it was interesting that they are DF27.

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    So unless there was an NPE that I don't know about, there's a Child Ballad about a DF27 guy. Probably that should be our official ballad, or something. I've known it for at least 50 years or so, can't quite recall why. Not from the recordings cited in the Wikipedia article. Possibly Richard Dyer-Bennett, or John Jacob Niles? Some slightly hammy ballad singer who was making records in the 1950s or 60s. If accompanied on a guitar, it was a dropped tuning (low E string down to D) and mostly played in D, to get the drone effect w/o actual bagpipes.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bo...arl_O%27_Moray

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    There are direct paternal Douglas of Morton descendants living in Sweden and they are Haplogroup I1 so these DF27 claimants are just wishful thinkers. Just Google Gustaf Douglas of Sweden. Are there any I1 participants in the Douglas DNA project?
    Grandma's mt; U5b2c2
    Paternal granddad's mt; U8a1a
    Granddad's y; R1b > L21 > DF13 > FGC11134
    G Granddad's y; R1b > Z18 > Z2396 > FGC5831
    G Granddad's y; R1a > Z284 > Z287 > CTS8401 > YP398 > YP392 > YP397

    EUtest V2 K15; French_Bsq + Irish + Orcadian + W_Norwegian @ 4.78
    MDLP W22; German-N + German-S + German_V + Swedish @ 1.14
    Dodecad V3; French_Bsq + German + Swedish + Argyll @ 1.01
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient; LaBrana + Yamnaya_Samara + BattleAxe_Sweden_RISE94 + Anatolian Neolithic @ 1.53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    There are direct paternal Douglas of Morton descendants living in Sweden and they are Haplogroup I1 so these DF27 claimants are just wishful thinkers. Just Google Gustaf Douglas of Sweden. Are there any I1 participants in the Douglas DNA project?
    If you read my post, I stated that of the 31 kits under this heading, there a few who claim descent from Freskin de Moravia. I have no idea who is the correct lineage. There is one kit under I1 claiming descent from the Swedish line. 1 kit versus 31 kits. This DF27 group is the largest related group in the project, which means they were very prolific. Again, I have no idea which group is the correct descendants. But paper trails, in my opinion, do not trump DNA. No matter who this DF27 group descends from, they are the largest group in the project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    If you read my post, I stated that of the 31 kits under this heading, there a few who claim descent from Freskin de Moravia. I have no idea who is the correct lineage. There is one kit under I1 claiming descent from the Swedish line. 1 kit versus 31 kits. This DF27 group is the largest related group in the project, which means they were very prolific. Again, I have no idea which group is the correct descendants. But paper trails, in my opinion, do not trump DNA. No matter who this DF27 group descends from, they are the largest group in the project.
    Ok, so if you Google Gustaf Douglas who is Swedish Nobility and pedigree back to god knows when and he's a billionaire, I think we are looking at the correct lineage. He's I1a. So it's pretty safe to say that the I1a Swedish noble who has a pretty concrete pedigree is ticking all the boxes to be the true descendant of the Douglas lineage in question. Any I1a project members with the surname Douglas may be his distant kin. The DF 27 group aren't.
    Grandma's mt; U5b2c2
    Paternal granddad's mt; U8a1a
    Granddad's y; R1b > L21 > DF13 > FGC11134
    G Granddad's y; R1b > Z18 > Z2396 > FGC5831
    G Granddad's y; R1a > Z284 > Z287 > CTS8401 > YP398 > YP392 > YP397

    EUtest V2 K15; French_Bsq + Irish + Orcadian + W_Norwegian @ 4.78
    MDLP W22; German-N + German-S + German_V + Swedish @ 1.14
    Dodecad V3; French_Bsq + German + Swedish + Argyll @ 1.01
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient; LaBrana + Yamnaya_Samara + BattleAxe_Sweden_RISE94 + Anatolian Neolithic @ 1.53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    Ok, so if you Google Gustaf Douglas who is Swedish Nobility and pedigree back to god knows when and he's a billionaire, I think we are looking at the correct lineage. He's I1a. So it's pretty safe to say that the I1a Swedish noble who has a pretty concrete pedigree is ticking all the boxes to be the true descendant of the Douglas lineage in question. Any I1a project members with the surname Douglas may be his distant kin. The DF 27 group aren't.
    First, it is just as possible that this group descends from Freskin de Moravia. There are several different groups with different haplogroups claiming to be descended from the same person, which isn't possible. Second, according to paper, I am a Webb, but genetically I am a Wilder. This Wilder group claims descent from the Wilder's of Shiplake, England as do a L21 group, and a U106 group. Again, not possible as these lineages are not related. Third, I don't care who is the rightful descendants of William de Duglis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    First, it is just as possible that this group descends from Freskin de Moravia. There are several different groups with different haplogroups claiming to be descended from the same person, which isn't possible. Second, according to paper, I am a Webb, but genetically I am a Wilder. This Wilder group claims descent from the Wilder's of Shiplake, England as do a L21 group, and a U106 group. Again, not possible as these lineages are not related. Third, I don't care who is the rightful descendants of William de Duglis.
    It is possible that the DF27 do descend from Freskin de Moravia but only if this noble Douglas I1a lineage doesn't descend from Freskin de Moravia via the direct paternal line. You don't care who the rightful descendants of William de Duglis are but you did post about him and now you know who are; it's the noble Swedish Douglas family from Sweden whose direct paternal lineage was originally Scottish. It looks like they've went full circle. They were originally from Scandinavia prior to 1066, they were likely the Scandinavian settlers of Normandy, then to the Isles and then back to Scandinavia. You cannot rule out Flemish origins somewhere in there either!
    Grandma's mt; U5b2c2
    Paternal granddad's mt; U8a1a
    Granddad's y; R1b > L21 > DF13 > FGC11134
    G Granddad's y; R1b > Z18 > Z2396 > FGC5831
    G Granddad's y; R1a > Z284 > Z287 > CTS8401 > YP398 > YP392 > YP397

    EUtest V2 K15; French_Bsq + Irish + Orcadian + W_Norwegian @ 4.78
    MDLP W22; German-N + German-S + German_V + Swedish @ 1.14
    Dodecad V3; French_Bsq + German + Swedish + Argyll @ 1.01
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient; LaBrana + Yamnaya_Samara + BattleAxe_Sweden_RISE94 + Anatolian Neolithic @ 1.53

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    Being a billionaire does not increase one's chances of not being a bastard -- or the lineal descendant of one. Webb has been talking about shared DNA, and thus a common paternal ancestor -- not necessarily even since the invention of paper, but genetically proven. You are talking about one family's paper trail, and a modern representative of it who has tested I1a. Unless some medieval tomb has been opened for the ancestor's own YDNA to be tested, that means relatively little. As the Smothers Brothers version of "Streets of Laredo" once put it, "I see, by your outfit, that you have an outfit."

    The Plantagenet Society used to have at least fifteen YDNA lines with some claim to descent from Richard III -- none of them strictly legitimate, but that's the nobility for you. They all had a paper trail. There was some hope that the King in the Car Park would match one, and disprove the other fourteen (if that was the final count). I don't know how that worked out, but I expect somebody does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post

    The Plantagenet Society used to have at least fifteen YDNA lines with some claim to descent from Richard III -- none of them strictly legitimate, but that's the nobility for you. They all had a paper trail. There was some hope that the King in the Car Park would match one, and disprove the other fourteen (if that was the final count). I don't know how that worked out, but I expect somebody does.
    DNA Results
    Mitochondrial DNA
    The DNA results showed a perfect whole-mitochondrial genome match between Skeleton 1 of the Greyfriars site and Michael Ibsen and a single base difference (mutation) with Wendy Duldig. This was not at all unexpected given the number of generations between them and is consistent with all three of them being related in the genealogical time span.

    Y chromosome
    Genealogical information showed that all five living male-line relatives of Richard III were descended from Henry Somerset, the 5th Duke of Beaufort and the Y chromosome data for four out of the five male-line relatives showed a match consistent with them being related as expected. However, one of the five had a very different Y chromosome type indicating that a false-paternity had occurred within the last few generations. The Y chromosome type of the Skeleton 1 did not match any of the living male-line relatives showing that a false-paternity event (or events) had also occurred somewhere in the 19 generations between Richard III and Henry Somerset, 5th Duke of Beaufort. This was not a particularly surprising result. Work by Turi King and others has shown that historical rates of false-paternity are around 1-2% per generation.
    From: https://www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/scie...ultsofdna.html
    R1b (aka M343) > M269 > L23 > L51 > L11 > P312 > DF19 > DF88 > FGC11833 > S4281 > S4268 > Z17112 (S17075-, L644-)

    Archaeological cousin: 6DRIF-23 of Driffield Terrace Roman Cemetery, York (Z17112+, S17075+, L644-)

    Known ancestors: Francis Cooke (I-M223/I2a2a) b. 1583; John Wing (U106) b. 1584; Richard Warren (M269Hidden Content ) b. ~1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b. 1583; John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b. ~1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b. ~1595

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    It is possible that the DF27 do descend from Freskin de Moravia but only if this noble Douglas I1a lineage doesn't descend from Freskin de Moravia via the direct paternal line. You don't care who the rightful descendants of William de Duglis are but you did post about him and now you know who are; it's the noble Swedish Douglas family from Sweden whose direct paternal lineage was originally Scottish. It looks like they've went full circle. They were originally from Scandinavia prior to 1066, they were likely the Scandinavian settlers of Normandy, then to the Isles and then back to Scandinavia. You cannot rule out Flemish origins somewhere in there either!
    The focus of my post was DF27, hence I posted under DF27. If the descendants of William de Duglis was the focus of my post I would have posted under a different sub forum. One of the DF27 Douglas kits tested BigY and shares several snps with a Sutherland on Alex’s Big Tree under the ZZ12 half of DF27. The above mentioned Freskin supposedly is responsible for starting the Sutherland line.

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