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Thread: (R-P312>DF27>ZZ12>FGC23083). William de Duglis, Earl of Morton/Freskyn de Moravia

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    That is precisely my point. This DF27 group is the largest group in the surname project. If they are not descended from William de Duglis or Freskin de Moravia, then someone else who was connected to these two families. One of the 31 kits lists a Breton as their earliest ancestor, which is a clue. This branch of DF27 does not appear to be Gaelic. We also know that in many instances clan chiefs have gained titles through their mother. Boyd is an example of a chief assuming the Boyd title without being paternally a Boyd. My point was that this group, no matter their paternity is very robust.
    Agreed,

    One thing which is overlooked with Scottish Clans is the notion of people who were adopted into the clan or families who adopted the clan surname for protection and other benefits from living within the boundaries of a clan chief's land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    Hahahah! Overly emotional. Aye, ok! Nice way to try and deflect from the facts as you have no argument. The point is, these DF27 guys do not have a pedigree and they just claim to have one. They've most likely copied each other's trees from ancestry like many do when they get a ancestry hint without validating the sources; it's easily done. The project admin is only highlighting who they put as their most distant ancestors. Has the admin really went to the length to verify their trees? No! How do I know that, because I no that they are wrong about their ancestry. It's funny that Gustaf Douglas not only has the pedigree, he also autosomally matches other well know noble families which share ancestry with the Douglas of Morton; Stewart (who test positive for the known Royal Stewart haplogroup), Gordon, Hamilton and so on. All these autosomal matches he has also have proven pedigrees. Anyway, I'm wasting my breath with many on here as there is an obvious agenda to ignore the facts as they don't fit with your wishful thinking ;-).
    The DF27 Douglas group clearly is significant, especially if they have no pedigrees and all copies their trees off of Ancestry. Perhaps there are a few dominant haplogroups within Clan Douglas, or perhaps some branches of Clan Douglas aren't related through the Y-line, but instead autosomally.

    I'm not saying Gustaf Douglas isn't a Douglas or if he is the descendant of an NPE, it is just not overly convincing when there is only 1 representative of his branch in the DNA project.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Agreed,

    One thing which is overlooked with Scottish Clans is the notion of people who were adopted into the clan or families who adopted the clan surname for protection and other benefits from living within the boundaries of a clan chief's land.



    The DF27 Douglas group clearly is significant, especially if they have no pedigrees and all copies their trees off of Ancestry. Perhaps there are a few dominant haplogroups within Clan Douglas, or perhaps some branches of Clan Douglas aren't related through the Y-line, but instead autosomally.

    I'm not saying Gustaf Douglas isn't a Douglas or if he is the descendant of an NPE, it is just not overly convincing when there is only 1 representative of his branch in the DNA project.
    Well this is my point! The DF27 LOT are most likely a Sept of the Douglas clan but they are not directly descended from the noble paternal Douglas lineage.
    Grandma's mt; U5b2c2
    Paternal granddad's mt; U8a1a
    Granddad's y; R1b > L21 > DF13 > FGC11134
    G Granddad's y; R1b > Z18 > Z2396 > FGC5831
    G Granddad's y; R1a > Z284 > Z287 > CTS8401 > YP398 > YP392 > YP397

    EUtest V2 K15; French_Bsq + Irish + Orcadian + W_Norwegian @ 4.78
    MDLP W22; German-N + German-S + German_V + Swedish @ 1.14
    Dodecad V3; French_Bsq + German + Swedish + Argyll @ 1.01
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient; LaBrana + Yamnaya_Samara + BattleAxe_Sweden_RISE94 + Anatolian Neolithic @ 1.53

  3. #23
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    If all the DF27 Douglas lines go back to the same man in their paternal line then you can assume there is no NPE in that line up to that point. The only options are that:

    1. it happened before then in that line,
    2. it happened in the Gustaf line, or
    3. it happened in both lines.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-14-2018 at 05:34 PM.
    Genetic info
     
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    If all the DF27 Douglas lines go back to the same man in their paternal line then you can assume there is no NPE in that line up to that point. The only options are that:

    1. it happened before then in that line,
    2. it happened in the Gustaf line, or
    3. it happened in both lines.
    Why doesn't one of you e-mail one of these DF27 guys and ask for the evidence of their pedigree all the way back to the Douglas Earl of Morton they claim to be descended from. I guarantee that they cannot provide such evidence that they do ;-). It's obvious they are related by the same Douglas ancestor but they are not descended from the early Earls of Morton via the direct paternal line. If they were, why are none of them a noble now when we have an actual noble who lives in Sweden who has a proven pedigree back to the Douglas Earls of Morton? Why do other noble families that have survived to date not know about them and also have links with them? Noble family tradition is to marry in to other noble families. Who are they linked with?

    Get me the proof and I'll believe it. Otherwise, it's just speculation and an ancestral error jumped on by others sharing the same yDNA and surname!
    Grandma's mt; U5b2c2
    Paternal granddad's mt; U8a1a
    Granddad's y; R1b > L21 > DF13 > FGC11134
    G Granddad's y; R1b > Z18 > Z2396 > FGC5831
    G Granddad's y; R1a > Z284 > Z287 > CTS8401 > YP398 > YP392 > YP397

    EUtest V2 K15; French_Bsq + Irish + Orcadian + W_Norwegian @ 4.78
    MDLP W22; German-N + German-S + German_V + Swedish @ 1.14
    Dodecad V3; French_Bsq + German + Swedish + Argyll @ 1.01
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient; LaBrana + Yamnaya_Samara + BattleAxe_Sweden_RISE94 + Anatolian Neolithic @ 1.53

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    Get me the proof and I'll believe it.
    I'm pretty sure I can speak for the broader DF27 community when I say we do not care a fig what you, an R1a guy with no dog in the fight either way, believe about this interesting subclade in our haplogroup project.

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I'm pretty sure I can speak for the broader DF27 community when I say we do not care a fig what you, an R1a guy with no dog in the fight either way, believe about this interesting subclade in our haplogroup project.
    What's my yDNA got to do with it? You're just pissed that I've put a spanner in the works of your desire to make false links to a Scottish noble family based on no evidence whatsoever ;-). To make such a claim, you better have the evidence to back it up or people like me jump all over it ;-). I see it on ancestry all the time, people copying trees from other's all the way back to Rollo without any evidence or cross referencing. It's mainly Americans with their desire to link to British aristocracy and they'll accept anything even when it's wrong. Us Brits just laugh! I'm still laughing so prove me wrong! Or are you so keen not to prove me wrong because you know you cannot? I think the latter ;-).
    Grandma's mt; U5b2c2
    Paternal granddad's mt; U8a1a
    Granddad's y; R1b > L21 > DF13 > FGC11134
    G Granddad's y; R1b > Z18 > Z2396 > FGC5831
    G Granddad's y; R1a > Z284 > Z287 > CTS8401 > YP398 > YP392 > YP397

    EUtest V2 K15; French_Bsq + Irish + Orcadian + W_Norwegian @ 4.78
    MDLP W22; German-N + German-S + German_V + Swedish @ 1.14
    Dodecad V3; French_Bsq + German + Swedish + Argyll @ 1.01
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient; LaBrana + Yamnaya_Samara + BattleAxe_Sweden_RISE94 + Anatolian Neolithic @ 1.53

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    Why doesn't one of you e-mail one of these DF27 guys and ask for the evidence of their pedigree all the way back to the Douglas Earl of Morton they claim to be descended from. I guarantee that they cannot provide such evidence that they do ;-). It's obvious they are related by the same Douglas ancestor but they are not descended from the early Earls of Morton via the direct paternal line. If they were, why are none of them a noble now when we have an actual noble who lives in Sweden who has a proven pedigree back to the Douglas Earls of Morton? Why do other noble families that have survived to date not know about them and also have links with them? Noble family tradition is to marry in to other noble families. Who are they linked with?

    Get me the proof and I'll believe it. Otherwise, it's just speculation and an ancestral error jumped on by others sharing the same yDNA and surname!
    Even if they did provide a paper trail, it wouldn't prove anything if not backed up with genetic testing. What is needed is triangulation...various paternal lines going back to the same ancestor. I've not really followed this topic. Who is/how far back is this DF27 shared Douglas ancestor?

    As a U152 guy I don't care a fig about how this topic turns out...just throwing in some emotionless thoughts.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-14-2018 at 06:36 PM.
    Genetic info
     
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Even if they did provide a paper trail, it wouldn't prove anything if not backed up with genetic testing. What is needed is triangulation...various paternal lines going back to the same ancestor. I've not really followed this topic. Who is/how far back is this DF27 shared Douglas ancestor?
    William de Duglis, alive 1174, and Earls of Morton. Yet we have a known Douglas noble (I1a), family moved to Sweden in 1500s to marry in to Swedish nobility. They have a proven pedigree to the Scottish Douglas Earls of Morton.
    Last edited by Northman; 01-14-2018 at 06:39 PM.
    Grandma's mt; U5b2c2
    Paternal granddad's mt; U8a1a
    Granddad's y; R1b > L21 > DF13 > FGC11134
    G Granddad's y; R1b > Z18 > Z2396 > FGC5831
    G Granddad's y; R1a > Z284 > Z287 > CTS8401 > YP398 > YP392 > YP397

    EUtest V2 K15; French_Bsq + Irish + Orcadian + W_Norwegian @ 4.78
    MDLP W22; German-N + German-S + German_V + Swedish @ 1.14
    Dodecad V3; French_Bsq + German + Swedish + Argyll @ 1.01
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient; LaBrana + Yamnaya_Samara + BattleAxe_Sweden_RISE94 + Anatolian Neolithic @ 1.53

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northman View Post
    William de Duglis, alive 1174, and Earls of Morton. Yet we have a known Douglas noble (I1a), family moved to Sweden in 1500s to marry in to Swedish nobility. They have a proven pedigree to the Scottish Douglas Earls of Morton.
    Sorry, I meant all these DF27 Douglas lines? Who is their MRCA? and when was he born?
    Genetic info
     
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12384. Yfull YF01489. YSEARCH 2PJVS.
    Earliest Known Paternal Ancestor: Edward Leopold Mitchell (NPE), b 1893, London, England

    Ancestry: English=37% Scot/Ulster-Scot=27% Welsh=14% Irish=3% German=14% Scandinavian=3% India=1% French & Dutch=1%

  11. #30
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    There is research at the University of St Andrews' 'Scotland and the Flemish People' project. This blog by Alexandrina Murray is from back in February 2016 but it describes the DF27 'Douglas-Sutherland cohort'.

    http://flemish.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/2...-they-flemish/

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