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Thread: Y Haplogroup L is caucasus

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by kush View Post
    Actually the haplogroups don't have much to do with ASI/ANI percentages. There are many south indian tribals with R1a and punjabis/kashmiris with H. As bmoney mentioned it just shows where your paternal line originally came from. Punjabi jatts aren't just L, they can have all the haplogroups you listed. Most common ones are R1a, J, L, and H among punjabis. In terms of looking kalash or pathan, then you probably need to check for the autosomal results. NE euro doesn't mean you have actual mixture from east europeans. It takes origin from a west eurasian group in central asia from the so called aryans. Baloch comes from Iran neolithic farmers who migrated into the subcontinent as dravidians. These people most likely brought the haplogroups L and J. But again haplogroups don't mean much since L is spread in south india, northwest india/pakistan, and afghanistan. All these populations look quite different from each other. South Indian is basically the native indian DNA, found highest among south indian tribals. Thats why its named after them. S.indian is half west eurasian. It's not completely ASI. Since you're punjabi jatt, your results might be fairly similar to the jatts you posted above around 28-30% S. Indian, with 14-15% being ASI, and the rest west eurasian. I'm not sure if all of the west eurasian is ANI. Again I'm no expert. I'm just going by what I know
    Thanks for clarification. From harappa ancestry and others lke 23andme ftdna, Y haplogroup sequence among jats is R> L > J >Q. They have also shown other haplogroups as G,T I and H but these are less than 5 %

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    yes NE euro %ages are quite elevated in Jatts particularly Haryana Jatts compared to surrounding pops according to the reference data. NE Euro peaks in the Baltic states not the Balkans, which is why its named NE Euro. But NE Euro is a steppe Indo-Aryan marker and would better fit R1a1a than L. L would better fit 'Baloch' at the group level

    L1c would not correlate with ancestry at the individual level except to say the person has at least a drop of Gedrosian/BMAC blood. For example even if you're an H Punjabi you'd be more genetically Punjabi than a south Indian H. So if you're extrapolating the data to yourself, you will definitely have higher South Indian than a Kalash even if you both share the same y-dna

    At a group level - To groups which have elevated L1c %ages like Jatts and the Kalash - it does loosely correspond to high Baloch/Hindu-Kush/Gedrosian component. In eastern and southern India hap L is quite rare and Gedrosian levels are generally lower.

    The Baluch have the highest Gedrosian of all and L1a is their most common haplogroup if i recall correctly

    Also are you a Jaat from Western UP? your scores would differ to other Jatts if that is the case, will be interesting to see your results

    My understanding is that ASI is mostly H y-haplogroup (australoid people) which is native of India and ANI is L, J, R, G, Q (central asian/siberian etc) thanks in advance if I can have your insight

    Mostly right - Id add F and C to H as major ASI haplogroup lineages, and O in the Eastern part of India

    Also ANI isnt a population, its a mix of both Neolithic Farmers from Iran and Steppe people who are quite different to each other
    Yes. I am a hindu jat from western UP, just on the border of haryana and most people of my clan are sikh jatts and resides around chandigarh area. Can you suggest me where I should get myself tested to get all these details?.....ofcourse not with much burden on my pocket
    Last edited by prashantvaidwan; 01-12-2018 at 07:34 AM.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I refer to this area
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactri...ogical_Complex
    as south central asia ......IMO T and L where created in here or very near here
    I respectfully disagree

    BMAC IMO was the source of L1c in South Asia, possibly L1a as well. There are no L1bs in the vicinity of the BMAC or in modern South Asians who have part of their ancestry from there

    L1a was found in Chalcolithic Armenia whereas the BMAC is only 2300 BC at its oldest, so it couldn't have originated in the BMAC

    According to phylogenetic tree L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant

    L2 - L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland, Iberian Peninsula and Sardinia to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.

    T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, the Nile Valley, the Arabian peninsula, Iran, as well as in some regions of Eastern India and Europe

    The only scenario that accounts for these geographic distributions is a Levant/Caucasus origin for basal L and a West Asian origin for LT

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    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    Yes. I am a hindu jat from western UP, just on the border of haryana and most people of my clan are sikh jatts and resides around chandigarh area. Can you suggest me where I should get myself tested to get all these details?.....ofcourse not with much burden on my pocket
    23andme is affordable and will tell you a very basic y-dna profile such as if you are R1a or L but wont tell you if you're L1a L1c etc.

    For autosomal ancestry I'm not sure what the best product is for the South Asian calculators currently available but its definitely not 23andme. I'm not sure if some of them tell you your y-dna though

    The deep y tests by FTDNA are quite expensive. I'll wait for other members of the forum to answer you, I don't know much about this area

    I actually guessed that I was L1a using an online ISOGG tool of which I'm not sure how accurate it is, as 23andme only told me I was L

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    23andme is affordable and will tell you a very basic y-dna profile such as if you are R1a or L but wont tell you if you're L1a L1c etc.

    For autosomal ancestry I'm not sure what the best product is for the South Asian calculators currently available but its definitely not 23andme. I'm not sure if some of them tell you your y-dna though

    The deep y tests by FTDNA are quite expensive. I'll wait for other members of the forum to answer you, I don't know much about this area

    I actually guessed that I was L1a using an online ISOGG tool of which I'm not sure how accurate it is, as 23andme only told me I was L
    23andMe originally told me I was L3* which is equivalent to L1c-M357. It currently states I am L-M357. I guess it depends on which L subtype you are for how much detail you are provided.

    As for which test to take, it all depends on your location. I would recommend 23andMe (but it doesn't ship to many countries including most in Asia) or others like Living DNA, Ancestry DNA, Geno 2.0, etc. I agree with your comments on FTDNA though since it requires additional money to get your haplogroups sequenced along with your autosomal DNA.

    https://int.customercare.23andme.com...o-you-ship-to-

    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    Yes. I am a hindu jat from western UP, just on the border of haryana and most people of my clan are sikh jatts and resides around chandigarh area. Can you suggest me where I should get myself tested to get all these details?.....ofcourse not with much burden on my pocket
    Your autosomal DNA shouldn't be too different from Haryanvi Jats and some Jatt Sikhs. Harappa Ancestry Project has one half Haryana/half Western UP Jat as you posted above. Your Y-DNA could be anything but it is most likely either R1a1a or L1c-M357. As for mt-DNA, there is no consistency but you will likely find other Jats with the same mt-DNA. Two of the Jats on the spreadsheet below share my mt-DNA (HV2). One is a Beniwal Haryana Jat and the other is a Jhaj Jatt Sikh.

    The spreadsheet below has a good list of individual Jat haplogroups. Most are Jatt Sikh but some are Hindu. They were collected by myself or Dr_McNinja through 23andmMe or FTDNA.

    Edit: removed the spreadsheet. You can pm me for it.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 01-12-2018 at 12:42 PM.

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  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    I respectfully disagree

    BMAC IMO was the source of L1c in South Asia, possibly L1a as well. There are no L1bs in the vicinity of the BMAC or in modern South Asians who have part of their ancestry from there

    L1a was found in Chalcolithic Armenia whereas the BMAC is only 2300 BC at its oldest, so it couldn't have originated in the BMAC

    According to phylogenetic tree L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant

    L2 - L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland, Iberian Peninsula and Sardinia to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.

    T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, the Nile Valley, the Arabian peninsula, Iran, as well as in some regions of Eastern India and Europe

    The only scenario that accounts for these geographic distributions is a Levant/Caucasus origin for basal L and a West Asian origin for LT
    Just wanted to add to this argument with an L tree I grabbed off Wegene, thanks Kush for the recommendation

    Attachment 20729

    Its clear that L1a in this graphic (L1a1 + L1a2/L1c) was the only offshoot that went East, which suggests a West to East movement, not the other way around

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    L2 also found in italy, armenia, Turkey and azerbaijan. btw L1 seems orriginated in middle east as far as all of the branches L1a, L1b and L1c found there with high diversity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    23andMe originally told me I was L3* which is equivalent to L1c-M357. It currently states I am L-M357. I guess it depends on which L subtype you are for how much detail you are provided.

    As for which test to take, it all depends on your location. I would recommend 23andMe (but it doesn't ship to many countries including most in Asia) or others like Living DNA, Ancestry DNA, Geno 2.0, etc. I agree with your comments on FTDNA though since it requires additional money to get your haplogroups sequenced along with your autosomal DNA.


    Your autosomal DNA shouldn't be too different from Haryanvi Jats and some Jatt Sikhs. Harappa Ancestry Project has one half Haryana/half Western UP Jat as you posted above. Your Y-DNA could be anything but it is most likely either R1a1a or L1c-M357. As for mt-DNA, there is no consistency but you will likely find other Jats with the same mt-DNA. Two of the Jats on the spreadsheet below share my mt-DNA (HV2). One is a Beniwal Haryana Jat and the other is a Jhaj Jatt Sikh.

    The spreadsheet below has a good list of individual Jat haplogroups. Most are Jatt Sikh but some are Hindu. They were collected by myself or Dr_McNinja through 23andmMe or FTDNA.

    Edit: removed the spreadsheet. You can pm me for it.
    I found few sheets in another threads. I observed that :

    - Though muslims jats are in west to sikh/hindu jats but they have higher ASI in comparison of sikh/hindu jat. For sikh/hindu jat it never transcends 30%. Sikh/hindu jats have lowest ASI in India. I tend to believe that muslim jats did not strictly practice endogamy in some recent past

    - Caucasian % among few sikh jatts is higher than hindu jat.

    - NE euro in jats ( sikh and hindu both) is highest in india and few hindu jats tops the chart

    - presence of Q along with R (around 60%) and high west eurasian among jats hints to transoxiana..andronovo culture... and later east scythians (massageate) as per the popular belief and supported by many historians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    I found few sheets in another threads. I observed that :

    - Though muslims jats are in west to sikh/hindu jats but they have higher ASI in comparison of sikh/hindu jat. For sikh/hindu jat it never transcends 30%. Sikh/hindu jats have lowest ASI in India. I tend to believe that muslim jats did not strictly practice endogamy in some recent past

    - Caucasian % among few sikh jatts is higher than hindu jat.

    - NE euro in jats ( sikh and hindu both) is highest in india and few hindu jats tops the chart

    - presence of Q along with R (around 60%) and high west eurasian among jats hints to transoxiana..andronovo culture... and later east scythians (massageate) as per the popular belief and supported by many historians?
    I'm guessing your looking at Harappa Gedmatch scores. I will just note the following:

    1. Harappa is an outdated calculator. With the discovery of ancient genomes from Central Asia and Europe, it was left behind quite some time ago.
    2. You're referring to South Indian/South Asian scores on various Gedmatch calculators and they do not correlate directly with ASI ancestry. They are components based off modern populations whom are not remotely anywhere near 100% ASI (they are usually West Eurasian or SE Asian admixed) or serve as very poor proxies for ASI (Onge or Andmanese). The closest we have to ASI estimates are calculators such as Eurogenes ANE K7 or Eurasia K9 ASI but even they are likely quite a bit off since we do not have any ancient South Asian genomes to get accurate ASI estimates.
    3. I've seen 1 Haryana Jatt score almost 32% South Indian (Beniwal) and 2 Jatt Sikhs score around 31%. I'm sure we could find more samples in the low 30's if sampled enough. We also have zero full Western UP Jat samples and only 2 Rajasthani Jat samples.
    4. It is likely Muslim Jatts have been less strict with endogamy after converting to Islam but there aren't enough Muslim or Hindu Jat samples to make any definitive conclusions. Only Jatt Sikhs have 15 samples on Harappa Ancestry Project and many references in Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets.
    5. Muslim Jats typically trend toward the Caucasus component over the NE Euro component on admixture calculators but there are exceptions. Some slightly prefer the NE Euro component and score 11-12% on Harappa or notable amounts of Baltic/East Euro/WHG/EHG, etc.
    6. Y-DNA Q is not West Eurasian. It peaks in Turkic populations from Central Asia and in Siberian populations of Eastern Russia. I would also not associate haplogroups directly to West Eurasian ancestry. Plenty of populations in South Asia and Central Asia have high amounts of R1a1a but aren't very West Eurasian in terms of autosomal DNA.
    Last edited by Sapporo; 01-17-2018 at 07:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    I'm guessing your looking at Harappa Gedmatch scores. I will just note the following:

    1. Harappa is an outdated calculator. With the discovery of ancient genomes from Central Asia and Europe, it was left behind quite some time ago.
    2. You're referring to South Indian/South Asian scores on various Gedmatch calculators and they do not correlate directly with ASI ancestry. They are components based off modern populations whom are not remotely anywhere near 100% ASI (they are usually West Eurasian or SE Asian admixed) or serve as very poor proxies for ASI (Onge or Andmanese). The closest we have to ASI estimates are calculators such as Eurogenes ANE K7 or Eurasia K9 ASI but even they are likely quite a bit off since we do not have any ancient South Asian genomes to get accurate ASI estimates.
    3. I've seen 1 Haryana Jatt score almost 32% South Indian (Beniwal) and 2 Jatt Sikhs score around 31%. I'm sure we could find more samples in the low 30's if sampled enough. We also have zero full Western UP Jat samples and only 2 Rajasthani Jat samples.
    4. It is likely Muslim Jatts have been less strict with endogamy after converting to Islam but there aren't enough Muslim or Hindu Jat samples to make any definitive conclusions. Only Jatt Sikhs have 15 samples on Harappa Ancestry Project and many references in Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets.
    5. Muslim Jats typically trend toward the Caucasus component over the NE Euro component on admixture calculators but there are exceptions. Some slightly prefer the NE Euro component and score 11-12% on Harappa or notable amounts of Baltic/East Euro/WHG/EHG, etc.
    6. Y-DNA Q is not West Eurasian. It peaks in Turkic populations from Central Asia and in Siberian populations of Eastern Russia. I would also not associate haplogroups directly to West Eurasian ancestry. Plenty of populations in South Asia and Central Asia have high amounts of R1a1a but aren't very West Eurasian in terms of autosomal DNA.
    Can you please share the latest sheets of South asian people with autosomal data from latest calculators? I tried to PM you but being a new member I have several restrictions still

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