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Thread: Y Haplogroup L is caucasus

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    I'm guessing your looking at Harappa Gedmatch scores. I will just note the following:

    1. Harappa is an outdated calculator. With the discovery of ancient genomes from Central Asia and Europe, it was left behind quite some time ago.
    2. You're referring to South Indian/South Asian scores on various Gedmatch calculators and they do not correlate directly with ASI ancestry. They are components based off modern populations whom are not remotely anywhere near 100% ASI (they are usually West Eurasian or SE Asian admixed) or serve as very poor proxies for ASI (Onge or Andmanese). The closest we have to ASI estimates are calculators such as Eurogenes ANE K7 or Eurasia K9 ASI but even they are likely quite a bit off since we do not have any ancient South Asian genomes to get accurate ASI estimates.
    3. I've seen 1 Haryana Jatt score almost 32% South Indian (Beniwal) and 2 Jatt Sikhs score around 31%. I'm sure we could find more samples in the low 30's if sampled enough. We also have zero full Western UP Jat samples and only 2 Rajasthani Jat samples.
    4. It is likely Muslim Jatts have been less strict with endogamy after converting to Islam but there aren't enough Muslim or Hindu Jat samples to make any definitive conclusions. Only Jatt Sikhs have 15 samples on Harappa Ancestry Project and many references in Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets.
    5. Muslim Jats typically trend toward the Caucasus component over the NE Euro component on admixture calculators but there are exceptions. Some slightly prefer the NE Euro component and score 11-12% on Harappa or notable amounts of Baltic/East Euro/WHG/EHG, etc.
    6. Y-DNA Q is not West Eurasian. It peaks in Turkic populations from Central Asia and in Siberian populations of Eastern Russia. I would also not associate haplogroups directly to West Eurasian ancestry. Plenty of populations in South Asia and Central Asia have high amounts of R1a1a but aren't very West Eurasian in terms of autosomal DNA.
    I'd like to add Q is mainly represented in Native American lineages which is why to me R and Q are Beringian or NE Asian - not West Eurasian in origin though R is now mainly represented in Europe and SA and absorbed a lot of West Eurasian autosomal dna in the steppe

    The only unambiguously West Eurasian/European lineage is I

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    Can you please share the latest sheets of South asian people with autosomal data from latest calculators? I tried to PM you but being a new member I have several restrictions still
    I'm don't believe any of the newest calculators have been added to Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets (such as lukasz K47/K45 or Eurasia ASI K9). Although, McNinja's spreadsheets have Eurogenes ANE K7 but even it's outdated by now.

    This is khana's spreadsheet for lukasz's calculators but they don't have all the South Asian individuals from Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets since the calculator is not available on Gedmatch and you need someone's raw data from a DNA testing company such as 23andMe, FTDNA, Ancestry.com, LivingDNA, etc. to calculate their results.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1109543936
    Last edited by Sapporo; 01-17-2018 at 01:30 PM.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    I respectfully disagree

    BMAC IMO was the source of L1c in South Asia, possibly L1a as well. There are no L1bs in the vicinity of the BMAC or in modern South Asians who have part of their ancestry from there

    L1a was found in Chalcolithic Armenia whereas the BMAC is only 2300 BC at its oldest, so it couldn't have originated in the BMAC

    According to phylogenetic tree L1b-M317 (xM349) probably originated between Levant and Iranian plateau, and L1b1-M349 probably originated in the Levant

    L2 - L-L595 is found only in Europe from Ireland, Iberian Peninsula and Sardinia to Eastern Europe and their highest frequency is found in Estonia,[Footnote 5] Scozzari 2001, Lappalainen 2008.

    T-M184 is most common in the Horn of Africa, the Nile Valley, the Arabian peninsula, Iran, as well as in some regions of Eastern India and Europe

    The only scenario that accounts for these geographic distributions is a Levant/Caucasus origin for basal L and a West Asian origin for LT
    Modern distribution does not mean origin, but there is L-L595 in Italy.

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  7. #24
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    There is a very large pocket, or founder effect that is in the Pontic Greek FTDNA project. I have not seen such a large amount of YDNA L in the non-Pontic Greek region from other studies and would be curious to know the origin. The group does have a rather sporadic distribution as it has popped up in ancient Armenia and this Pontic-Greek project does have one of the larger distributions of one of the branches I have seen.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    There is a very large pocket, or founder effect that is in the Pontic Greek FTDNA project. I have not seen such a large amount of YDNA L in the non-Pontic Greek region from other studies and would be curious to know the origin. The group does have a rather sporadic distribution as it has popped up in ancient Armenia and this Pontic-Greek project does have one of the larger distributions of one of the branches I have seen.
    L1b-PH8 very frequent not only along pontic greeks but also other pontic populations like hemsihns, pontics Turks and Lazs, (or this link for lazs)

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Modern distribution does not mean origin, but there is L-L595 in Italy.
    True but my main point was the area of maximum diversity for L1 is Iran or the Caucasus

    SC Asia + SA only have L1a (l1a1+11c)

    L2 not sure if its even West Asian/Caucasian
    Last edited by bmoney; 01-17-2018 at 11:52 PM.

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    I'm don't believe any of the newest calculators have been added to Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets (such as lukasz K47/K45 or Eurasia ASI K9). Although, McNinja's spreadsheets have Eurogenes ANE K7 but even it's outdated by now.

    This is khana's spreadsheet for lukasz's calculators but they don't have all the South Asian individuals from Dr_McNinja's spreadsheets since the calculator is not available on Gedmatch and you need someone's raw data from a DNA testing company such as 23andMe, FTDNA, Ancestry.com, LivingDNA, etc. to calculate their results.

    Thanks for the sheet. It has just 1 sample of a punjabi_jatt and another one is for punjabi_jat_gujjar ( not sure gujjar or jat?)...and result in that punjabi jatt sample are surprisingly distinct from others ..35% belarussians...!!

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    Thanks for the sheet. It has just 1 sample of a punjabi_jatt and another one is for punjabi_jat_gujjar ( not sure gujjar or jat?)...and result in that punjabi jatt sample are surprisingly distinct from others ..35% belarussians...!!
    I wouldn't pay much attention to that calculator yet. It's still in its infancy and Razib Khan isn't very experienced in developing admixture calculators yet. That Punjabi Jatt sample looks more like someone who is half white than someone fully Punjabi Jatt. By the way, I was incorrect. Dr_McNinja did add the Eurasia K9 ASI to his spreadsheet.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1548493524
    Last edited by Sapporo; 01-18-2018 at 12:54 PM.

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapporo View Post
    I wouldn't pay much attention to that calculator yet. It's still in its infancy and Razib Khan isn't very experienced in developing admixture calculators yet. That Punjabi Jatt sample looks more like someone who is half white than someone fully Punjabi Jatt. By the way, I was incorrect. Dr_McNinja did add the Eurasia K9 ASI to his spreadsheet.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1548493524
    Sap, the sheet does not load anymore. I believe you are one of the admins of the sheet, can you check it if it's public or not?
    Deg Teg Fateh - Victory to Charity and Arms

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by prashantvaidwan View Post
    I am a Jat from delhi region. The most common L among jatts is L1c (L-M357). In india, L-M357 peaks at northwest and also found in south india (but subsequently very low). It is also found predominantly in pashtuns and kalashs. As jatt, pashtuns and kalashs are mostly good looking, tall and and strong built, I was curious to dig a bit more about y haplogroup and physical appearance connection. I am a naive in this field and have a limited knowledge.
    Thats very questionable and open to different interpretation. From what I have researched and learned through osmosis via friends, there is considerable variation among Jats. The Haryana/Rajastan and I am assuming the Delhi Jats form one cluster and the Sikh Jats another. In terms of phenotypes there is wide range but, IMO the Haryana/Rajastan Jats looked like other Northern Indians and many of them in fact looked like urban Southern Indians. From what I have seen on forums for years those praising height, looks and etc of Jats are usually just the Jats themselves.

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