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Thread: Early Scandinavian Migration into Germany ?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Glad to see this thread got bumped and there is discussion ;-). I agree with Finn that there is more recent Nordic input into Frisians... (reference the sub groups of U106 like L48, Z301, and Z18, which are much more common in Germanic speaking/Northern areas)... but my particular interest lies in the Z156 people who appears to be much more Southern than these other groups - best described as Celto-Germanic ;-). I think that this can been supported somewhat by what we know of history - like Finn is saying there was recent Northern input into the areas of Frisia... but who where the Frisians before that happened and who according to known history had connections to the Chatti East of the Rhine - and then the Canninefates and Batavians ;-). I am willing to bet the more Southern tribes of Netherlands were heavily Z156... but we need many more dna samples!

    Yes John I think in your case a Norman or slightly before that... is a good case for your paternal line. Overall we can get a good look at a group like U106... in that L48 is more Northern and Z156 more Southern. I think it's all down to the individual's paternal line for more detailed info. Take mine for example... clusters in Northern England and Scotland with connections to Scandinavia... but when you factor in the Roman gladiator 6drif-3 who was fairly close to me compared to my modern matches (they are just old) it proves that paternal line was in Northern England about 1800 years ago... you have a cluster of British families that match it... and a couple of Swedes who are more recently related to each other... so that makes it look like a more recent (after the York gladiator's time) migration to Sweden from the Isles... probably even around the Viking period.

    More ancient DNA and more modern samples will help us zero in on just what was going on! I favor either a pre-Roman arrival for my group in the Isles from the Netherlands/Rhine region... or an early Roman era possible auxiliary origin since 6drif-3 (despite being included in the Gladiator group) was buried in an area with a ton of military funeral material aka the Mount - one of the richest areas for coffins and carved tombstones according the York Roman burial records. That's about all I have to go on at the moment... ;-).

    How is your connection with the Cecil line going John?

    Cheers,
    Cathal Dubh Charlie
    Yes we need to be conscious that migration went both ways.
    As I'm no DNA expert I won't say too much about the Cecil connections as possibly pending or hoped-for results may provide ( I hope) greater clarity. Sufficient to say as a non-DNA expert there are some things that don't look quite right to me as things stand. Unfortunately I lack the depth of knowledge to delve into the detail myself. Maybe there is a factor that hasn't currently been allowed for.
    The common ancestor with the Cecils is estimated at around 1300 AD I understand and of course both our surnames appear to have a Welsh or at least culturally Welsh origin, (Saissil) which could also mean the English side of the border but close to Wales.

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  3. #12
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    I don't know if this relates, but it might --

    My dad's mtDNA (his matrilineal ancestor) goes back to Suffolk in the 1500s. That's pretty certain, as not only am I confident in the research/paper record on that line (granddaughter came to Massachusetts as part of the Great Migration in 1634), but several others who are perfect matches trace to the same woman through different lines. At least one perfect match goes to Germany (that seemed pretty certain too, as the immigrant to the US came late enough to have a good paper record, and it seems likely the MRCA between the two is pretty far back). Several one mutation matches are in Ireland, England, Scandinavia, and Germany. Just recently we got a new perfect match -- to someone in Norway, with an identified matrilineal ancestor in 1700s Norwary. So the MRCA we are looking for (I realize we won't find the woman, I'm talking migration patterns) has descendants in Germany, Norway, and Suffolk.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    I don't know if this relates, but it might --

    My dad's mtDNA (his matrilineal ancestor) goes back to Suffolk in the 1500s. That's pretty certain, as not only am I confident in the research/paper record on that line (granddaughter came to Massachusetts as part of the Great Migration in 1634), but several others who are perfect matches trace to the same woman through different lines. At least one perfect match goes to Germany (that seemed pretty certain too, as the immigrant to the US came late enough to have a good paper record, and it seems likely the MRCA between the two is pretty far back). Several one mutation matches are in Ireland, England, Scandinavia, and Germany. Just recently we got a new perfect match -- to someone in Norway, with an identified matrilineal ancestor in 1700s Norwary. So the MRCA we are looking for (I realize we won't find the woman, I'm talking migration patterns) has descendants in Germany, Norway, and Suffolk.
    I don't know anything about that maternal group but I understand Y U106 appears to have had a migration pattern in or close to Germany, into and out of Scandinavia (not all "out" of course) and was apparently also connected to the Anglo Saxon and Norse migrations to Britain and possibly earlier. I guess there were other individual migration events of course. The "spread" you are referring to seems to be quite feasible depending on the time period of course.
    What surprises me a bit perhaps because I'm not very good with the technical side is that we are looking at Y 12 marker matches (to me) but detailed analysis by those who know more than me seems to show, if I understand things correctly, a fairly definitive paternal line connection which is certainly pre-1500's but very probably much earlier. Hopefully an estimated common ancestor date will emerge in due course.

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  7. #14
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    There seems to have been Scandinavians (and from elsewhere too) in Kent 3,000 ybp , although most were apparently female and unlikely to have been migrants (see below).

    https://aardvarchaeology.wordpress.c...ifice-in-kent/

    I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water just yet. The majority of Scandinavian-derived (or Germanic generally) , modern British Y groups are probably from the Germanic Migrations period . Clade estimation dates , ancient DNA papers , the POBI project , Y distribution maps, etc , strongly suggest a significant impact upon the British genome from this time. But undoubtedly some I1 and R1a could have arrived much earlier , specifically with Bronze Age expansions after 4,000 ybp. Clearly many big sub-clades arrived much later from Scandinavia or nearby (I1-L22 , R1a-Z284 for instance) .But U106 is so far unique in that sense , being the only 'Germanic clade' to be found in Dutch Beakers , Swedish Battle Axe and pre-Anglo-Saxon England. The new Beaker paper may show some U106 in British Beaker individuals (when it is finally released), but they will be of course be in the minority.


    Known Ancestry : roughly 50% English , 35% Scots and 15% Irish
    Ancient DNA : Most similar to individual 6DRIF18 from Roman York
    LivingDNA : 87.6% British & Irish , 12.4% Scandinavian
    AncestryDNA : 51% Irish/Scots/Welsh , 34% Europe West , 10% Scandinavian
    23&Me : 85.2% British & Irish , 7.6% French & German , 5.3% NW European, 1.4% Scandinavian

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by angscoire View Post
    There seems to have been Scandinavians (and from elsewhere too) in Kent 3,000 ybp , although most were apparently female and unlikely to have been migrants (see below).

    https://aardvarchaeology.wordpress.c...ifice-in-kent/

    I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water just yet. The majority of Scandinavian-derived (or Germanic generally) , modern British Y groups are probably from the Germanic Migrations period . Clade estimation dates , ancient DNA papers , the POBI project , Y distribution maps, etc , strongly suggest a significant impact upon the British genome from this time. But undoubtedly some I1 and R1a could have arrived much earlier , specifically with Bronze Age expansions after 4,000 ybp. Clearly many big sub-clades arrived much later from Scandinavia or nearby (I1-L22 , R1a-Z284 for instance) .But U106 is so far unique in that sense , being the only 'Germanic clade' to be found in Dutch Beakers , Swedish Battle Axe and pre-Anglo-Saxon England. The new Beaker paper may show some U106 in British Beaker individuals (when it is finally released), but they will be of course be in the minority.
    "36% local
    32% southern Norway or Sweden
    20% western Mediterranean
    12% indeterminate"

    That's fascinating. I don't think anyone would doubt the significance of the Anglo Saxon and Norse migrations but obviously there were
    population movements before then.
    "British" taking people from Scandinavia isn't what usually is expected.

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  11. #16
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    I wonder if Dogger land, eventually becoming "Dogger Island", presumably the people still living on Dogger Island before its disappearance 5,000 BC had any impact? or is this a little too early?
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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    I wonder if Dogger land, eventually becoming "Dogger Island", presumably the people still living on Dogger Island before its disappearance 5,000 BC had any impact? or is this a little too early?
    I've sort of assumed too early in relation to U106 at least but I don't know about other groups. It does make you wonder though if we should always think about the Continent to Britain, when in some instances it might be the other way maybe or perhaps both ways may be a better way of putting it?

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    I wonder if Dogger land, eventually becoming "Dogger Island", presumably the people still living on Dogger Island before its disappearance 5,000 BC had any impact? or is this a little too early?
    Maybe there's a little survival in some paternal I2 and maternal U4 and U5 lineages . No Mesolithic British genomes have been tested yet . But a fair few Neolithic have , and they are all I2a/I2b , which are classic European Hunter Gatherer lineages and make up 5-10% of modern British Y types . So it's likely I2 dominated Doggerland. However , that is no guarantee that modern British I2 lines descend directly from Mesolithic Brits, because I2 was a pan-European Mesolithic haplogroup (as were U4 and U5) , and has likely arrived in Britain with a succession of migrants across the millennia long after Doggerland disappeared. Neolithic British maternal lines are largely derived from farmers, and genome wide DNA suggests an affinity with Iberian farmers. But these people were largely replaced anyway ,it seems, by Beakers . So there is little room for lasting specific Doggerland impact except perhaps in some I2 , U4 and U5 lineages.
    Last edited by angscoire; 01-17-2018 at 06:53 PM.


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    Ancient DNA : Most similar to individual 6DRIF18 from Roman York
    LivingDNA : 87.6% British & Irish , 12.4% Scandinavian
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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    I wonder if Dogger land, eventually becoming "Dogger Island", presumably the people still living on Dogger Island before its disappearance 5,000 BC had any impact? or is this a little too early?

    I guess that the "Doggerlanders" are part of the S/W HG....
    "Finn, son of Folcwald,
    should honour the Danes.."

    Beowulf

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