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Thread: Early Scandinavian Migration into Germany ?

  1. #1
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    Early Scandinavian Migration into Germany ?

    I wonder if anyone can provide some information on the early Scandinavian migration into Germany (and adjacent countries? My own interest is in U106 but there are other groups of course.
    I have read this migration into what is now Germany began around 900BC - is this accurate? When might this movement of people have concluded? (allowing of course for subsequent minor population movements)
    I'm guessing it may have been largely concluded before the Roman period?
    I'll be honest and say I'm interested because of a probable paternal line connection to Norway. Pending test results may give a date to the most recent common ancestor but this is of course likely to be a very long time ago, how long ago may or may not give a clue to the paternal migration to the UK? Thanks.

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    Hey John,

    How's it going? Yes we really need more ancient DNA samples from all over... I'm just hoping that they academics are starting in the Bronze Age and working their way towards the present. There is supposed to be a lot of ancient DNA testing going on in the Netherlands... and also in Poland... I'm hoping to see some results from that this year? Also I heard that the same guys who were looking to get a hold of Rollo's descendant's bones in France (turned out the bones were too old) are also trying to get access to the Hauteville Brothers buried in Italy... so maybe we can find out if they are in fact U106 since I think a family with matches (?) in Italy and also in U106 claim to be descended from them...

    I also wonder how many more U106+ Z156+ guys are buried in the those Driffield Terrace cemeteries ;-).

    Cheers,
    Charlie Cathal Dubh
    Y-DNA: MDKA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ Roman Gladiator skeleton #3 from 6 Driffield cemetery SW of York!

    mtDNA: MDKA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana circa 1843 in Ireland - MtDNA - T2b2b - most common in Ireland, but with connection to Scandinavia aka T2b female warrior burial Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Hey John,

    How's it going? Yes we really need more ancient DNA samples from all over... I'm just hoping that they academics are starting in the Bronze Age and working their way towards the present. There is supposed to be a lot of ancient DNA testing going on in the Netherlands... and also in Poland... I'm hoping to see some results from that this year? Also I heard that the same guys who were looking to get a hold of Rollo's descendant's bones in France (turned out the bones were too old) are also trying to get access to the Hauteville Brothers buried in Italy... so maybe we can find out if they are in fact U106 since I think a family with matches (?) in Italy and also in U106 claim to be descended from them...

    I also wonder how many more U106+ Z156+ guys are buried in the those Driffield Terrace cemeteries ;-).

    Cheers,
    Charlie Cathal Dubh
    If there is a Norwegian connection somewhere it's difficult to work out why, how and when they might have got to Britain and Ireland. Of course Norman is only one possibility.
    I have a couple of 12 marker matches in Italy, one with Sicilian Ancestry. It seems maybe a 12 marker match isn't always irrelevant when you look at more detailed results.
    Yes two U106 out of seven (?) seems a bit of a coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnHowellsTyrfro View Post
    If there is a Norwegian connection somewhere it's difficult to work out why, how and when they might have got to Britain and Ireland. Of course Norman is only one possibility.
    I have a couple of 12 marker matches in Italy, one with Sicilian Ancestry. It seems maybe a 12 marker match isn't always irrelevant when you look at more detailed results.
    Yes two U106 out of seven (?) seems a bit of a coincidence.

    Under the broad umbrella of the Anglo-Saxon invasion there was most probably a West-Norwegian contingent in the fifth century.

    See for this:
    John Hines, The Scandinavian character of Anglian England in the pre-Viking period (1984).
    Johan Nicolay, Odin in Friesland (2017)

    In my AuDNA there is a big Scandic/ Norwegian component.

    These pictures (Nicolay 2016) belong to this Norwegian migration in the fifth century AD:



    Cross shaped fibulae


    Little short of time now, like to exchange/know more about this!
    Last edited by Finn; 01-12-2018 at 07:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Under the broad umbrella of the Anglo-Saxon invasion there was most probably a West-Norwegian contingent in the fifth century.

    See for this:
    John Hines, The Scandinavian character of Anglian England in the pre-Viking period (1984).
    Johan Nicolay, Odin in Friesland (2017)

    In my AuDNA there is a big Scandic/ Norwegian component.

    These pictures (Nicolay 2016) belong to this Norwegian migration in the fifth century AD:



    Cross shaped fibulae


    Little short of time now, like to exchange/know more about this!
    Thanks,I'm probably jumping too far ahead too quickly. Really we need to see what, if anything, comes out of further results but there does seem to be more than one probable connection to Norway (West Coast) on our paternal line.
    I'm just trying to work out what might be the possible connections and routes from Norway given that our paternal line (based on limited information) appears to be focused in or near Wales by which I mean including the English border Counties of Herefordshire and Gloucestershire. Of course new information may reveal a different picture. There are some apparently Welsh surnames within our line some others are not. A Norman origin doesn't seem to fit very well with Welsh surnames, neither does Anglo Saxon for that matter but not impossible maybe in a culturally Welsh area.
    There was some Viking (probably Norwegian I think) settlement in South West Wales but as yet we have no matches in that area.
    If for example there was a common ancestor in Norway after the early 600's AD that would seem to make an Anglo Saxon migration route unlikely for our paternal line maybe? Of course if there is a considerably earlier common ancestor, that would leave open a lot of possibilities.
    Personally I wouldn't rule out at least some Scandinavian migration to Britain and Ireland in earlier periods (pre- Anglo Saxon and Viking). Appreciate the information.
    Last edited by JohnHowellsTyrfro; 01-12-2018 at 08:28 PM. Reason: additional information

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    The first "norwegians" to reach Shetland (Hjaltland) arrived no later than 8.000 yrs ago.

    During early Bronze Age there were organized trade across the North Sea as well as the Norwegian Sea - from the major centras of Middle Norway to the Orkneys, before Roman time called Ross-eyar. (ONO: 'ross' = copper, eyar = islands). From here they found other "copper-islands" (Ross-ey) around Scotland and Ireland, as well as the tin-mines of Wales and Cornwall.

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.no...t-morgawr.html

    The result was complementary traditions of produce from copper, tin and bronze - as in tools, weapons and artefacts - that spread from Fenno-Scandia to Ireland in the west and Volga-Ural in the east.

    Recent news:
    Mid-Norway: https://www.adressa.no/nyheter/nordt...e-14636167.ece
    Brittain: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-...al-site-021010

    Irish: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26880...-h/26880-h.htm
    Brittish: https://digventures.com/2017/11/10-b...-eyes-sparkle/
    Mid-Norwegian: https://www.ntnu.no/museum/bronsealderen-i-midt-norge
    Replikas from west-coast Norway: https://gfx.nrk.no/drHQ99jF9Lu6-OKME...BjCaXh_M3gS0hQ
    http://www.bronsereplika.no/Bronsere...WEB/Sverd.html

    Context: https://www.academia.edu/294246/The_...ze_Age_Society

    PS: As the first, mesolithic 'Germans' were from the same dynasties of y-dna I2 as the first, mesolithic Scandinavians we might suspect that the first cultures surrounding the North Sea and the Baltic Sea shared a common origin - starting with the (small) refugia of humans - and a few other large mammals - that survived the Younger Dryas in a REFUGIA between Bromme (12.700 BP), Scania (12.500 BP) and Lyngby (12.100 BP) - from where the lands surrounding the Baltic Ocean - as well as the North Sea - was RE-populated. By both reindeers and elks, aurochses and horses, mice and men.

    Consequently we find a very early communication of travel and trade, by seaworthy boats, between the famous flint-mines of Jutland and Scania and the seafaring pioneers that found the Oslo Bay area already 11.900 yrs BP, from where they reached the SW coast 11.700 BP, Lofoten 11.500 BP and North cape no later than 11.200 BP. While their I2-cousins down south re-populated Brittain, Bretagne and Biscany - as well as the Baltic countries. Seemingly, their descendants - carrying y-dna I2 and (later) I1 - are still found in substantial amounts throughout Northern Europe. Some of them, sharing alleles with the R1a-group, were obviously instrumental to the spread of herding and farming, as well. Thus one may consider the cultural and genetical exchange between todays Germany and Scandinavia as a "family-affair" - throughout both mesolithic and neolithic time.
    Last edited by Boreas; 01-13-2018 at 12:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
    The first "norwegians" to reach Shetland (Hjaltland) arrived no later than 8.000 yrs ago.

    During early Bronze Age there were organized trade across the North Sea as well as the Norwegian Sea - from the major centras of Middle Norway to the Orkneys, before Roman time called Ross-eyar. (ONO: 'ross' = copper, eyar = islands). From here they found other "copper-islands" (Ross-ey) around Scotland and Ireland, as well as the tin-mines of Wales and Cornwall.

    http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.no...t-morgawr.html

    The result was complementary traditions of produce from copper, tin and bronze - as in tools, weapons and artefacts - that spread from Fenno-Scandia to Ireland in the west and Volga-Ural in the east.

    Recent news:
    Mid-Norway: https://www.adressa.no/nyheter/nordt...e-14636167.ece
    Brittain: http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-...al-site-021010

    Irish: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/26880...-h/26880-h.htm
    Brittish: https://digventures.com/2017/11/10-b...-eyes-sparkle/
    Mid-Norwegian: https://www.ntnu.no/museum/bronsealderen-i-midt-norge
    Replikas from west-coast Norway: https://gfx.nrk.no/drHQ99jF9Lu6-OKME...BjCaXh_M3gS0hQ
    http://www.bronsereplika.no/Bronsere...WEB/Sverd.html

    Context: https://www.academia.edu/294246/The_...ze_Age_Society

    PS: As the first, mesolithic 'Germans' were from the same dynasties of y-dna I2 as the first, mesolithic Scandinavians we might suspect that the first cultures surrounding the North Sea and the Baltic Sea shared a common origin - starting with the (small) refugia of humans - and a few other large mammals - that survived the Younger Dryas in a REFUGIA between Bromme (12.700 BP), Scania (12.500 BP) and Lyngby (12.100 BP) - from where the lands surrounding the Baltic Ocean - as well as the North Sea - was RE-populated. By both reindeers and elks, aurochses and horses, mice and men.

    Consequently we find a very early communication of travel and trade, by seaworthy boats, between the famous flint-mines of Jutland and Scania and the seafaring pioneers that found the Oslo Bay area already 11.900 yrs BP, from where they reached the SW coast 11.700 BP, Lofoten 11.500 BP and North cape no later than 11.200 BP. While their I2-cousins down south re-populated Brittain, Bretagne and Biscany - as well as the Baltic countries. Seemingly, their descendants - carrying y-dna I2 and (later) I1 - are still found in substantial amounts throughout Northern Europe. Some of them, sharing alleles with the R1a-group, were obviously instrumental to the spread of herding and farming, as well. Thus one may consider the cultural and genetical exchange between todays Germany and Scandinavia as a "family-affair" - throughout both mesolithic and neolithic time.
    Thank you for that, some very interesting information. I've never been in doubt myself about early connections between Britain, Ireland and Continental Europe and the possibility of an early flow of people around the North Coast of Scotland and down into the Irish Sea.
    Of course from a personal perspective this has to be looked at in the context of U106 Z326 which I think is believed to have formed around 2,000 - 1,000 BC, if I understand things correctly, possibly in Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age and where our paternal branch may fit into that and the various migration possibilities.
    I suppose what I'm curious about is whether our branch made the trip to Britain via Germany and the Netherlands ( Anglo Saxon) or whether it was more "direct". Of course a stop-off in France is one possibility. I suppose it's possible that more than one Y descendant could have made the trip at different times and as part of different cultures.
    It will take someone with a better understanding of DNA than me to look into that.

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    Glad to see this thread got bumped and there is discussion ;-). I agree with Finn that there is more recent Nordic input into Frisians... (reference the sub groups of U106 like L48, Z301, and Z18, which are much more common in Germanic speaking/Northern areas)... but my particular interest lies in the Z156 people who appears to be much more Southern than these other groups - best described as Celto-Germanic ;-). I think that this can been supported somewhat by what we know of history - like Finn is saying there was recent Northern input into the areas of Frisia... but who where the Frisians before that happened and who according to known history had connections to the Chatti East of the Rhine - and then the Canninefates and Batavians ;-). I am willing to bet the more Southern tribes of Netherlands were heavily Z156... but we need many more dna samples!

    Yes John I think in your case a Norman or slightly before that... is a good case for your paternal line. Overall we can get a good look at a group like U106... in that L48 is more Northern and Z156 more Southern. I think it's all down to the individual's paternal line for more detailed info. Take mine for example... clusters in Northern England and Scotland with connections to Scandinavia... but when you factor in the Roman gladiator 6drif-3 who was fairly close to me compared to my modern matches (they are just old) it proves that paternal line was in Northern England about 1800 years ago... you have a cluster of British families that match it... and a couple of Swedes who are more recently related to each other... so that makes it look like a more recent (after the York gladiator's time) migration to Sweden from the Isles... probably even around the Viking period.

    More ancient DNA and more modern samples will help us zero in on just what was going on! I favor either a pre-Roman arrival for my group in the Isles from the Netherlands/Rhine region... or an early Roman era possible auxiliary origin since 6drif-3 (despite being included in the Gladiator group) was buried in an area with a ton of military funeral material aka the Mount - one of the richest areas for coffins and carved tombstones according the York Roman burial records. That's about all I have to go on at the moment... ;-).

    How is your connection with the Cecil line going John?

    Cheers,
    Cathal Dubh Charlie
    Y-DNA: MDKA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z304/306-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ Roman Gladiator skeleton #3 from 6 Driffield cemetery SW of York!

    mtDNA: MDKA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana circa 1843 in Ireland - MtDNA - T2b2b - most common in Ireland, but with connection to Scandinavia aka T2b female warrior burial Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden.

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