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Thread: The black legend on the Spanish presence in the low countries

  1. #1
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    The black legend on the Spanish presence in the low countries

    Probably we need a thread about this new paper, so the inevitable discussion of it won't get misplaced. RCO posted the abstract on a thread on which discussions are unwelcome. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post332475

    It belongs in the DF27 area because of this bit of misguided methodology:

    Results: The frequencies of Y-chromosomal markers Z195 and SRY2627 decline steeply going north from Spain and the data for the Flemish and Dutch populations fits within this pattern. No trend of higher frequencies of these variants has been found within the well-ascertained samples associated with Spanish Fury cities.
    I'm inclined to think that's because the frequency of those markers (and several others on the DF27 tree) increased, a couple thousand years or so before the Spanjool business in the Low Countries, going south toward Spain, etc. But we shall see. I realize the other point of view is based on evidence, of a sort. That evidence may be interpreted in several ways, and in my opinion the "DF27 is Iberian" crowd need to raise their sights a few clicks to see what was actually going on in this phylogeny.

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    They also could investigate other more specific Iberian markers in the Low Countries to try to find an explanation and TMRCA suitable with their question/legend.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
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    I think there was one case of a rare heart disease shared with some Dutch and Spanish families which they assumed was through a Spanish soldier;
    also there are a few Dutch families likely originating in Spain in this period (such as Grandia, though the fact that this family kept such a name doesn't point to a soldiers rape), but not widescale.

    further though: it is still very common to ascribe dark traits to "the Spanish", like the Armada in GB, and I think that will continue, because people are stubborn listeners.
    Last edited by Pylsteen; 01-12-2018 at 11:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    They also could investigate other more specific Iberian markers in the Low Countries to try to find an explanation and TMRCA suitable with their question/legend.
    Interestingly, I have only seen a couple of Z209* kits (xZZ40, xZ295) and they were MDKA France and Germany.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
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    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Why does it have to be the low countries?

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    Besides a possible genetic connection 2500 years ago, when it comes to Dutch families who could have Iberian origin let's remember there was a busy exchange of goods (mainly wool, wine and fabric) and people between Spaniards and Dutch since the middle ages. Already a few centuries before the Spanish emperor (who was born and raised in Flanders) inherited those territories.

    (The so-called black legend is mostly garbage propaganda anyway)
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 01-14-2018 at 03:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch View Post
    Why does it have to be the low countries?
    It's the topic of the new paper mentioned in the first post, and the thread title.

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    As far of the why; the Netherlands have been under Spanish rule for some time in the 16th century, the Southern Netherlands for a longer time, and there was the long war, and the author is Flemish.
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    Results: The frequencies of Y-chromosomal markers Z195 and SRY2627 decline steeply going north from Spain and the data for the Flemish and Dutch populations fits within this pattern. No trend of higher frequencies of these variants has been found within the well-ascertained samples associated with Spanish Fury cities.

    if the premise of the paper is to find legacy of 'spanish soldiers' in the low-countries than just looking solely at spain itself is a skewed premise altogether, as the 'Army of Flanders' relied heavily on the so called foreign contingents from 1565-97 the 'Army of Flanders' J.Glete2002p.85 consisted of 40 tercios 22Spanish/18Italian(majSouth_It) and 47 regiments 28German/19Walloon in 1621 of the 47 tercios I.Lopez2012p.7 seven were Spanish the rest (40) being Walloon and Italian with regiments being German, Burgundian and Irish;
    Geno2.0NextGeneration 51%SouthernEurope 19%Western&CentralEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EasternEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WestMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%GreekAlbania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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  17. #10
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    The Spanish and Italian tercios made only a small percentage (the elite) of the Spanish armies in the Low Countries anyway. The most of the soldiers under the Spanish flag were center european mercenaries (German, Swiss, Walloons..)

    Oops, alexfritz post was not there when I posted mine... I'll also add that I read somewhere that Napolitan tercios were also counted as Spanish.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 01-14-2018 at 04:01 PM.
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