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Thread: U106* (U106+ Z381- Z18-) & L199.1+ & L217.1+

  1. #1
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    U106* (U106+ Z381- Z18-) & L199.1+ & L217.1+

    Here are the earliest branching folks from the two large U106 subclades, Z381 and Z18.

    f206572 Gillespie R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- L199.1- L5- L6- P107- L217- sa- uas Scotland
    fN82860 Gordon R1b-U106* U106+ L132+ Z18- Z381- L199.1- L5- L6- P107- L217- sa- uas Scotland, Highland, Sutherland, Caen
    f121519 Kuhns R1b-U106* U106+ L132+ L477+ L493+ Z18- Z381- L199.1- L5- L6- P107- L217- sa- uas Germany
    f73422 Schlegal R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- P107- sa- uas Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt
    f224064 Shephard R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- L6- P107- L217- sa- uas England
    f181203 King R1b-U106* U106+ L132+ Z18- Z381- L6- P107- L217- sa-24-151115 England, South West, Gloucestershire, Berkeley, Ham
    f143009 McDonald R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- L6- P107- L217- sa-24-64012 zzzUnkOrigin
    f21569 Cook R1b-U106* U106+ Z18- Z381- P107- sa-24-710-57210 zzzUnkOrigin

    Scotland shows up more so than England while Germany does make the board, which I would expect.

    I don't see the Low Countries in this yet, but we should count the L199.1+ folks as they are probably private and meet the Z381- Z18- criteria.

    f63831 Van Tielroe Netherlands, Zeeland, Domburg
    fN77403 Van Tielroe Netherlands, Zeeland, Domburg

    To be fair, I should also include L217.1+ since they are Z381- Z18- too:

    fN32126 Blackburn R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171 UK
    fN81545 Hall R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171 England, West Midlands, Herefordshire, Pembridge
    f23884 Hickman R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ P107- s2171 zzzUnkOrigin
    f230795 Kirk R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ s2171 England, West Midlands, Warkwickshire
    f194170 Lovell R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ L6- P107- s2171 UK
    f217725 Manning R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171 France, Channel Islands, Jersey (UK but close to France)
    f23545 Platt R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L132+ L217+ L5- L6- P107- s2171 England, West Midlands, Shropshire, Hodnet
    f232315 Goodson R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171-n425 England
    fN50419 Goodson R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ s2171-n425 Ireland
    f206551 Goodson R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ s2171-n425 zzzUnkOrigin
    fN87046 Smith R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ L217+ P107- s2171-n425 France
    f2599 Walker R1b-U106>L217.1+ L217.1+ s2171-n425 zzzUnkOrigin

    Perhaps Clinton P can help us. L217 has multiple occurrences. I'm a little concerned that the 425=null guys are L217.1+ since 425=null is common in parts of L48.

    All in all, I don't see a Poland or Hungary up above. I also don't see an Austria, but Austria is terribly under-represented in our projects so that doesn't mean much.

    I was surprised to see France show up at all.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-10-2013 at 02:20 PM.

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    U106* (U106+ Z381- Z18-) & L199.1+ & L217.1+

    The motif for L217.1+ appears to be

    DYS492 = 13+ (This captures most U106)
    DYS520 = 21+

    Usually with:

    YCAIIb = 22
    DYS617 = 11

    The only exceptions to this are Lovell with YCAIIb = 23 & DYS617 = 12, and Blackburn with YCAIIb = 23.

    There are 15 L217.1+ haplotypes. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...0)-Information

    The DYS425 = null guys have all been proven to be L217.1+ by Sanger sequencing (L217 doesn't work on the Geno2.0 chip)

    There are 66 haplotypes who would test positive if they did so. See Yahoo Groups - R1b1c_U106-S21 forum.
    Files -> R1b1a2a1a1a7 or SNP L217[.1] Information -> L217 positive 07 July 2013.xlsx

    Currently the L217.1 positive hotspot appears to be an area in the British West Midlands (Shropshire, Staffordshire, Herefordshire, Worcestershire and Warwickshire), there also appears to be a ‘French Connection’.

    Both Vince T and myself are participating in the Full Y Chromosome Sequencing at Full Genomes Corporation, Inc.

    Clinton P
    • FullGenomes ID:....FG1048A
    • YFull ID :...............YF01371 & YF02740

    y-DNA
    Hg: R-U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > FGC3861 > Z8053 > S1855 > S1859 > FGC3883........
    Shorthand: R-FGC3883


    mt-DNA
    Hg: H2a2b
    Extra Mutations: 309.1'C', 315.1'C', A16235'G', T16357'C', C16519'T'.

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    Odd that the hotspot should be in the West Midlands rather than the East Midlands or East Anglia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    All in all, I don't see a Poland or Hungary up above.
    Does Geno 2.0 test Z18 ? If so, then N59802 of Ukraine (who is definitely Z381-) appears to be Z18- as well. He has 21 at DYS520.

    EDIT: Yes, Geno 2.0 does apparently test Z18.

    As always, please remember that not everyone has the money and motivation for perpetual SNP testing. Thus, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," especially with respect to obscure deep subclades and paraclades. Paraclades, in particular, require multiple negative results that quickly sap both money and motivation.
    Last edited by lgmayka; 09-11-2013 at 12:21 AM.

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    Larry is absolutely correct in his statement that the vast majority of folks who would ultimately be U106* are hidden under the guise of U106 and untested below that (precisely for the reason he indicated). This is especially true for L48*, as the major subclade (Z9 - which is quite a bit larger than L47) is not currently on FTDNA's haplotree (and thus hard for folks to even find, say nothing about testing for).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    ... All in all, I don't see a Poland or Hungary up above. I also don't see an Austria, but Austria is terribly under-represented in our projects so that doesn't mean much.

    I was surprised to see France show up at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    Does Geno 2.0 test Z18 ? If so, then N59802 of Ukraine (who is definitely Z381-) appears to be Z18- as well. He has 21 at DYS520.

    EDIT: Yes, Geno 2.0 does apparently test Z18.

    As always, please remember that not everyone has the money and motivation for perpetual SNP testing. Thus, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," especially with respect to obscure deep subclades and paraclades. Paraclades, in particular, require multiple negative results that quickly sap both money and motivation.
    I agree. Testing beyond of American and British Isles MDKAs is relatively light so very clearly the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in those areas.

    Do you think U106 came into Germany from Poland/Czech Republic/Hungary ?

    As far as negative results sapping motivation, in the case of U106 I think everyone should test for Z381 and Z18 or something downstream. Just having two large clades under U106 is not that demanding in comparison with some haplogroups where there are up to ten large subclades immediately under. Taking the dive to Z381+ or Z18+ or U106* (not double asterisk) is not that big of a deal.

    There must be someone in U106 land who is comparing raw Geno 2 results and publishing negative results (with the postives). David Reynolds does this in L21 and posts the results. Is this posted for U106?

    I've only posted SNP confirmed paragroup haplotypes so far on these threads. I've got suspects classified by STR cluster too, but then we get into a bit of speculating. Those add even more American/Isles bias though as I have to have a fair sized subgroup to look for STR patterns.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-11-2013 at 02:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    There must be someone in U106 land who is comparing raw Geno 2 results and publishing negative results (with the postives). David Reynolds does this in L21 and posts the results. Is this posted for U106?
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...wd2VIbUE#gid=4

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing Genealogist View Post
    N59802 is listed there as U106* .

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    FamilyTreeDNA kit # 181781. Surname Sallee from France, R1b1a2, appears to be a good fit for L217.1.
    He has DYS492 = 13 and DYS520 = 21.

    Clinton P
    • FullGenomes ID:....FG1048A
    • YFull ID :...............YF01371 & YF02740

    y-DNA
    Hg: R-U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > FGC3861 > Z8053 > S1855 > S1859 > FGC3883........
    Shorthand: R-FGC3883


    mt-DNA
    Hg: H2a2b
    Extra Mutations: 309.1'C', 315.1'C', A16235'G', T16357'C', C16519'T'.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    N59802 is listed there as U106* .
    On relevant SNPs, I've got:
    fN59802 Ferleyko R1b-U106 U106+ L132+ Z381- L199.1- L6- P107- L217- sx- uas Ukraine

    However, I see he is a Geno 2 customer so he might have Z18- in his raw results. Can this be confirmed? Is Maddi or Moore reviewing the raw Geno 2 results?

    EDIT: I just opened the google doc link and see this work is being done. Do you know who owns this? In a wonderful world we'd have a single format all haplogroups to use even if their files are maintained separately.
    .. and yes fN59802 Ferleyko is G- at Z18

    Thanks for the heads up.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-12-2013 at 08:00 PM.

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