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Thread: Romanian test and calculator results--your comments

  1. #51
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    Yes, LivingDNA does personalize their maps. I think it is rather a nice feature of their service. In complete mode, my Aegean is the same as yours; except is has a pretty teal color (I like it). I have more Transylvanian ancestry than Muntenian. Nothing Moldavian.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Fungene View Post
    The puzzle of the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode.

    This post is really about what one can do with commercial test results in combination with information from other sources. For all their limitations, LivingDNA and 23andMe can help in making useful inferences.

    This is what the Aegean grouping in LivingDNA’s cautious mode looks like and how it is described:

    In modul precaut, am exact aceleasi regiuni ca tine. Cele 5% "Aegean" se fac aici 70%. Imi pare putin ciudat ca nu au bagat si partea de vest din Balcani. Cred ca aici sunt grupate si geografic zonele cu mare afinitate genetica intre ele dar si cu noi. Nu ma mira ca au unit regiunile in care se gasesc Bulgaria, Serbia, Ungaria, si chiar sudul Italiei.
    Dar vad ca zona este putin modificata la Dorkymon. Am vazut ca nu are in modul "complet" Balcani, Panonia si Spania dar are totusi sudul Italiei si Grecia.
    Last edited by euasta; 11-20-2018 at 04:52 PM.

  3. #53
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    Yes, it is an interesting aspect of LivingDNA's cautious mode maps that they appear to be tailored to the individual. This was first brought to my attention when a former Anthrogenica poster pointed out that, in cautious mode, his Eastern Balkans was placed within a larger Baltic-northeast Europe-related confidence group. It's somewhere in a LivingDNA thread. I think you were part of the conversation.

    It would be nice to have more people who got East and West Balkans in complete mode tell us what their cautious mode looks like. LivingDNA's complete mode shows that they incorporate parts of Serbia, Macedonia, and Greece in East Balkans.

    Some time ago, LivingDNA posted the following map on their website, indicating their future plan for a revised regional breakdown. It is very ambitious. I don't know how far along they are in this project.

    Last edited by Fungene; 11-20-2018 at 04:07 PM.

  4. #54
    Eu sunt sceptic. Este o dezamagire. LDNA... incepe sa dezamageasca tot mai mult Constat ca duce o politica de aburire a clientilor.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by euasta View Post
    Eu sunt sceptic. Este o dezamagire. LDNA... incepe sa dezamageasca tot mai mult Constat ca duce o politica de aburire a clientilor.
    Mai degraba sa scoti raw data si sa te joci cu calculatoarele amatoare din sectiunile "Autosomal" si "Ancient DNA". Cu dansii vom astepta mult. Ei aproape de un an deja se apuca sa lanseze serviciul lor de rudenie. Si asta-mi pare mai simplu decat ce isi propun sa obtina prin proiectul lor de regiuni.
    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.6% Greek & Balkan (4% Broadly South Euro), 35.7% East Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 6.5% Broadly Euro
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%
    Hidden Content

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  7. #56
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    I'm pleased to reveal that I most likely uncovered the mysteries of my East Asian ancestry. At least, this is by far shaping up to be the most plausible scenario, which requires the least amount of mental gymnastics.

    So, by digging into the paper trail and asking my relatives, I found both in the documents and directly from my grandma that even though she was born in Iasi, her family migrated from Orheiul Vechi (now in Moldova), in the first days of the Soviet takeover.
    Apparently, this was pretty common at that time.

    Now, this wouldn't give me a lot of clues without further research, as Moldovan Romanians generally plot among Northeast Romanians anyway.
    But the key here is her specific place of ancestry, Orheiul Vechi. And luckily enough, I found some extensive archaeological and anthropological studies on it.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    So, as a reminder, these are my results from commercial calculators:

    23andme


    MyHeritage


    FTDNA



    Now prior to learning about this, I was mostly leaning towards either the idea of an ancient preserved ancestry (not that far off now really) or the existence of a recent Tatar ancestor (Ukraine is just around the corner and there are Tatars even in Romania, around Constanta).

    However, the idea of a recent Tatar ancestor began to look more and more unlikely, as I was learning that they score more than East Asian:

    Crimean Tatar




    So, the patterns are not there, because given the different types of modern Tatar ancestry, I should be getting more West Asian and Caucasus input that puts me at the higher end for Romanians. This is clearly the signal that should be coupled with East Asian to recognise a recent Tatar input.
    I get the opposite, less WA, Caucasus and more East Euro.

    That's why this was leading me to postulate about a more ancient input, with much less West Eurasian contribution, that somehow managed to preserve.

    By a stroke of luck, I stumbled upon an informational leaflet, which was advertising about Orheiul Vechi.
    There, it was stated that the village became a town, when it was conquered by the Tataro-Mongols and became the seat of the local division of the Golden Horde in the 13th century.
    Now, that's a long time ago and I would expect any genetic contribution from that far away to have washed off.
    Unless, if maybe those Tatars who remained or left mixed descendants back there, mixed extensively with the natives of that place to the point that a higher amount of East Asian became kind of normal there.

    And I found this study, which suggests that this is exactly what happened.

    If you don't want to read through the text and want a quick summary then a TL;DR is that a recent Tatar ancestor is most likely excluded for me.
    People from there were an Eurasian mix since the 13th century (roughly 75% Euro, 25% East Asian) and even after the Mongol retreat in the 14th century, this held well into the 16th.
    Those anthropological studies from the screenshots below confirm that for the remains from the 13th and 16th centuries. This admixing was also facilitated by the tendency for Mongols to convert to Christianity even in the 13th century, when they were still reigning over the village (town at the time), built a church next to their mosque and started to bury their dead according to Christian rite.











    Source: https://www.academia.edu/36185635/Gh...83u_2018_150_p

    So, that seems to be the story of this mysterious side of my ancestry.

    A great run with the 12th century Tatar Kipchaks, Karakhanids (Central Asia) and the modern Naxi who where on the steppe of Northwestern China at that time.


    Last edited by Dorkymon; 01-05-2019 at 03:05 PM.
    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.6% Greek & Balkan (4% Broadly South Euro), 35.7% East Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 6.5% Broadly Euro
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%
    Hidden Content

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  9. #57
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    My updated v4

    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.6% Greek & Balkan (4% Broadly South Euro), 35.7% East Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 6.5% Broadly Euro
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%
    Hidden Content

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  11. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post

    A great run with the 12th century Tatar Kipchaks, Karakhanids (Central Asia) and the modern Naxi who where on the steppe of Northwestern China at that time.


    An even tighter and perhaps more realistic run, considering that the Irish disappeared.

    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.6% Greek & Balkan (4% Broadly South Euro), 35.7% East Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 6.5% Broadly Euro
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%
    Hidden Content

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  13. #59
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    On J2 in Romania

    J2 occurs in around 13-14% of Romania's population.

    It seems that most Romanian J2 falls primarily into J2a as is more characteristic for Bulgaria, Greece and Ukraine rather than J2b as is more typical in Albania, Serbia and Croatia.
    I reached a similar conclusion by looking at academic papers, but it's nice seeing this confirmed on FTDNA's public haplotree too.

    1) https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...891?via%3Dihub
    80% - J-PF4610 (J2a1)
    6% - J-PF4610 (J2a1)
    40% - J-M67 (J2a1a1a2b2)
    6% - J-Z6065 (J2a1a1a2a)
    20% - J-L25 (J2a1a1b2a1)
    6% - J-PF5169 (J2a1a1b1a1a)
    20% - J-M241 (J2b2a)

    2) https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._European_Roma
    63% - J-M410 (J2a)
    42% - J-M410 (J2a)
    16% - J-M67 (J2a1a1a2b2)
    5% - J-M92 (J2a1a1a2b2a1a)
    37% - J-M241 (J2b2a)

    3) FTDNA Public Haplotree
    J-M172
    54% - J-M172*
    34% - J-M410 (J2a)
    1% - J-M410* (J2a)
    1% - J-L26 (J2a1a)
    1% - J-L25 (J2a1a1b2a1)
    4% - J-PF5366 (J2a1a1b2a1c2)
    3% - J-Z435 (J2a1a1b2a1b1b)
    4% - J-Z2227 (J2a1a1a2)
    19% - J-M67 (J2a1a1a2b2)
    12% - J-M102 (J2b)
    1% - J-M102* (J2b)
    1% - J-BY22607 (J2b2b2a)
    7% - J-M241 (J2b2a)
    1% - J-Z597 (J2b2a1a1a)
    1% - J-Z1297 (J2b2a1a1a1a1a)


    So more or less, the ratio between J2a/J2b is roughly 3/1, but can rise to 4/1 in Southeastern Romania (where the Greek settlements were).
    Following the clades of J2a downstream, from 60-100% falls into J-M67, which could eventually lead to M92 for most. J-M67 and J-M67>J-M92 both seem to have strong vibes from the Caucasus IMO.
    The rest of J2a from 0-40% falls into J-L25, which could lead in equal proportions to J-PF4888>J-PF5366 and J-Z438>J-Z435. Both seem to have been diffused by perhaps the Indo-Europeans?
    Last edited by Dorkymon; 02-07-2019 at 01:07 AM.
    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.6% Greek & Balkan (4% Broadly South Euro), 35.7% East Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 6.5% Broadly Euro
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%
    Hidden Content

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