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Thread: Need help interpreting results for McElmurry, M222

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  1. #1
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    Need help interpreting results for McElmurry, M222

    I am researching the surname McElmurry (son of the devote of the BV Mary). I suspect they are related to an Ulster family such as MacGill-Muire, Cu-Uladh O'Morna. It seems less likely they are related to MacGilleMhoire of Lewis or McIlvory of Mann since both groups nearly universally changed their names to Morrison.

    The Y-DNA results at the Morrison DNA project include results for two McElmurry found in group N1 at the following link.

    http://morrisondna.x10.bz/morrison/p...%20Project.htm

    M093-SMGF lists an earliest known ancestor of Billy Preston McElmurry of Kentucky whose line intersects my line at David McElmurry born 1775 near the Kentucky/Illinois border. M093-SMGF is a 34/34 match with M209-149692 who lists an earliest known ancestor of Patrick McElmurry born 1730 in Ireland.

    Being a complete beginner in this field I have many questions but I will start with two. Do the DNA results support an Ulster connection (at the time surnames came into use) over a Hebridian or Lowlands one and what else can be gleaned from these results?

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Mac von Frankfurt; 09-14-2013 at 06:17 AM.
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    I calculated GDs between McElmurry 149692 and all members of the Morrison DNA project at 37 markers. Results from the regions of interest include:

    Isles of Lewis and Harris: five I-M253 at GD 54
    Lewis, Harris, and North Uist: ten R-M269 and two R-L48 at GD 21
    Isle of Mann: three Mylvorrey/McGilvorrs/Morrison R-DF5 at GD 16

    The Morrison project specifically targeted the Hebrides and no R-M222 has been found on the islands by the project. McElmurry 149692 has a GD of:

    9 from the R-M222 modal
    10 from a group of R-M222 Gilmore/Gilmour
    11 from a group of R-DF5 Morrison
    14 from a group of R-M222 Morrison

    Not the Hebrides is looking pretty strong at this point.
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  3. #3
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    I am M222 and have close matches to the Gilmours so I'd be interested in discussing in further detail if you like. The origins of all these names are hard to unravel, there was a group of O Gilmore on the Ards peninsula which I posted about elsewhere recently but it is always possible the name was adopted (separately) in Ayrshire where it is common. But even the most accurate DNA is going to struggle when you are as close to a national/geographic boundary as Ards! So I wouldn't at this stage say you can split Ulster from lowland Scotland.

    MacUalraig in Glasgow, Scotland

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    No the Hebridean Gilmores and the native Irish Gilmores are not related. The only connection is that the surnames are Gaelic and have the same meaning. The County Down native Irish McGilmore/O'Gilmores are an ancient local group. However, this is complicated by the fact that there was Scottish plantation settlers potentially from the Scottish Gilmores into the same sort of area that the Irish Gilmores were located in country Down. To complicate it further I think there was another group of Gilmuirs in the Scottish lowlands who were related to neither the Irish or the Hebridean Gilmores. There has also been movement in the opposite direction too. So, today the picture will be complicated. Usually a religious pattern in Ulster helps sort this out but in fact it appears that in the area where the Irish Gilmores were settled, many of the natives converted to Protestantism along with other small clans like McGimpsey etc and both names are common among protestants now. I think to sort them out into groups genetically it will simply take building up a large database of all Gilmores until the pattern becomes clearer. The complex two way traffic between Ulster and Scotland will mean it may take a big group to sort this out. It is worth noting though that the plantation of Ulster specifically banned the 'wild' island Scots from the Hebrides taking part so Gilmores in Ulster should not really be from the Hebrides. So, in Ulster Gilmores are likely to be native Irish or lowland Scots.

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    Gilmore is also a west of Ireland name specifically tied to the Uí Fhiachrach (descendants of Fiachrae half-brother of Niall) . In which case it's probably M222+, knew several Gilmores growing up in Galway:

    Mac GIOLLA MHIR—IV—M'Gilver, M'Gilmer, Gilmer, Gilmor; 'son of Giolla mear' (the merry, lively youth); the name of an old family of the Ui Fiachrach race in Co. Sligo, formerly seated in the townland of Finnure, in the barony of Tireragh.

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    I sure hope Eamon isn't M222!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    No the Hebridean Gilmores and the native Irish Gilmores are not related. The only connection is that the surnames are Gaelic and have the same meaning. The County Down native Irish McGilmore/O'Gilmores are an ancient local group. However, this is complicated by the fact that there was Scottish plantation settlers potentially from the Scottish Gilmores into the same sort of area that the Irish Gilmores were located in country Down. To complicate it further I think there was another group of Gilmuirs in the Scottish lowlands who were related to neither the Irish or the Hebridean Gilmores. There has also been movement in the opposite direction too. So, today the picture will be complicated. Usually a religious pattern in Ulster helps sort this out but in fact it appears that in the area where the Irish Gilmores were settled, many of the natives converted to Protestantism along with other small clans like McGimpsey etc and both names are common among protestants now. I think to sort them out into groups genetically it will simply take building up a large database of all Gilmores until the pattern becomes clearer. The complex two way traffic between Ulster and Scotland will mean it may take a big group to sort this out. It is worth noting though that the plantation of Ulster specifically banned the 'wild' island Scots from the Hebrides taking part so Gilmores in Ulster should not really be from the Hebrides. So, in Ulster Gilmores are likely to be native Irish or lowland Scots.
    Thanks for that.

    Can we infer anything from the fact McElmurrys only did phonetic anglicization and kept the Mac. Are they more likely to be native Irish or were they just not in commerce where Gilmore or Morrison may have been more advantageous.

    My McElmurry branch lost connection with their church while following the deer hide trade on the North American frontier. When they were re-enlightened they became Methodists in the main except for Old Uncle Henry the Baptist and his followers.
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    I recommend 'The Book of Ulster Surnames' by Robert Bell. It is an intelligent book that considers native Irish, Scottish, English etc names found in Ulster. It is very good in terms of pointing out all the duplicate surnames, their various origins and the probability of which one is most likely. Its a far better book than McLysaght which doesnt go into anywhere much as detail and has a poorer understanding of the issue of duplicate names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac von Frankfurt View Post
    Thanks for that.

    Can we infer anything from the fact McElmurrys only did phonetic anglicization and kept the Mac. Are they more likely to be native Irish or were they just not in commerce where Gilmore or Morrison may have been more advantageous.

    My McElmurry branch lost connection with their church while following the deer hide trade on the North American frontier. When they were re-enlightened they became Methodists in the main except for Old Uncle Henry the Baptist and his followers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I recommend 'The Book of Ulster Surnames' by Robert Bell. It is an intelligent book that considers native Irish, Scottish, English etc names found in Ulster. It is very good in terms of pointing out all the duplicate surnames, their various origins and the probability of which one is most likely. Its a far better book than McLysaght which doesnt go into anywhere much as detail and has a poorer understanding of the issue of duplicate names.
    It's a very insightful book alright.

  13. #10
    I was researching my surname- McElmurry. Your post caught my interest because Henry McElmurry was my great, great grandfather!

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