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Thread: CTS1751 (L21>DF13>CTS1751) and variations of L144

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    CTS1751 (L21>DF13>CTS1751) and variations of L144

    I thought I would open a thread about CTS1751, as I can not reply to or start messages on the L21 Yahoo Group with Yahoo's new format.

    Kit 55192, Whalen, L144+, recently tested Geno 2.0 and is positive for CTS1751.


    David Reynolds posted on the L21 Yahoo Group - CTS1751 (rs11799049) is derived in 23andME v2 samples for Brazile and Griffeth, Brazile being associated with L144+. It is also derived in 1000 Genomes sample NA12340, which is L144+.

    J Brazile posted - Regarding 23andme, my son and I both did their v2 chip and both of us were reported L144+. But then I upgraded to v3 and it came back L144-. My brother and dad did v3 and both were reported as "no call" on L144.
    My brother 55018 has agreed to do the CTS1751 test now.


    Mikewww7 posted - The CTS1751+ 82797 Benjamin Nichols has only 37 STRs but matches the L144+ Bracewell/Brazil group.



    CTS1751+ tested at Geno 2.0 are
    ;
    55192, Whalen
    82797 Nichols

    CTS1751+ tested at 23and Me are
    ;
    Brazile
    Griffeth

    Currently awaiting results for CTS1751 at FTDNA are
    ;
    132634 Whalen
    86333 Phalen
    57993 Prosser
    55018 Brazile.


    David Reynolds posted -
    The Kendall who tested with Geno 2.0 is L144+ CTS1751-.

    The Griffeth at 23andME was L144- CTS1751+. However, note that L144 at 23andME is a flaky probe. One of the Braziles tested L144+ and the other L144-, and this is a father/son combo.

    Where I think we are headed on this, assuming that all the test results turn out the way I think they will, is that R-CTS1751 will replace R-L144 on the ISOGG tree. This will be the Brazile, Bracewell, Whelan, Prosser et al. families.

    There will then be three variations of L144, which will not be listed on the ISOGG tree:
    L144.1+ located under R-U152 (HUGO Ref Seq is L144.1+)
    L144.2+ approx. equivalent to CTS1751+ (currently labeled L144.1)
    L144.3+ located under R-DF13, Kendall family private SNP

    Geno 2.0 results have already established that CTS1751 is mutually exclusive with the other 13 subclades of R-DF13.

    Note that L144, while on the the Geno 2.0 chip, is blacklisted--it always returns L144-.



    cheers
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-26-2013 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Format title to make it easy to find and consistent

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    Quote Originally Posted by rivergirl View Post
    ...

    CTS1751+ tested at 23and Me are
    ;
    Brazile
    Griffeth
    Thank you for the status. This is a confusing one.

    I'm going to switch to CTS1751 in the spreadsheet as the "lead with" haplogroup defining SNP. CTS1751 looks like ISOGG's direction. I'll also manually relabel the Braczille/Bracewell/etc L144+ people as L144.2+ manually. I don't like to do these manual changes but L144.2 appears effectively equivalent to CTS1751 so I will assume that in the spreadsheet haplogroup labels. Please update us if that changes. If it does change, I'll probably just throw L144 out altogether.

    Do you have kit#'s or Ysearch IDs for the 23andMe Brazille and Griffeth folks?
    I'll add them to the spreadsheet whether they have STRs or not?

    P.S. On the L21 project news yahoo group, if you need to post something you can also just send an email to the message board ID. The email subject line becomes the topic/conversation title.

    R1b-[email protected]

    Likewise, if you receive messages from the R1b-L21-Project yahoo group by email (which is an option) you can reply by simply replying through your email functions.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 09-26-2013 at 02:37 PM.

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    57993 Prosser tested CTS1751+
    132634 Whalen tested CTS1751+

    Still waiting on other results to come in.

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    55018 Brazile CTS1751+

    Still waiting on results for 86333 Phalen

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    Any updates on this possible ancestral SNP to L144? CTS1751>L144

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    Not much more to report as yet.


    CTS1751+ tested at 23and Me;
    Brazile, USA, also L144+
    Griffeth, unknown, is this a Welsh name?


    CTS1751+ tested at Geno 2.0;
    55192, Whalen, born 1751 Erril, Co Laois, Ireland
    82797, Nichols, bc 1746 USA, - possibly from Fife, Scotland c1640s or maybe Isle of Skye 1620s.
    274385, Horton, born 1759, Hartford, England, died USA - (probably Hortons of Hartford, Northumberland, Eng)

    Horton and Nicholls do not match the usual L144.1 Whelan/Brazile/Bracewell/Prosser etc.. haplotype.
    They each have 10 or more matches within their surname groups, and the two surname groups do not appear to match closely.
    Two men within these surname haplotypes are L144-;
    162032, Nicholls and 12300, Horton


    Tested CTS1751+ at FTDNA;
    132634, Whalen, born c1750, Ireland
    57993, Prosser, born 1767, Wales
    55018, Brazile, USA


    Still awaiting results for CTS1751 at FTDNA;
    86333 Phalen, born circa 1830 Ireland


    I do not know if any men have tested at Britains DNA and I haven't seen any Whalen/Phelans order the Big Y.
    (I tested my brother for the Big Y, he's not my Whelan relative, and I couldn't afford to do both.)
    Last edited by rivergirl; 01-11-2014 at 03:35 AM.

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    Rivergirl, with so many DF13 subclades, I was finding it hard to keep up with all the changes. Thanks for the information.

    FYI, I am negative for both SNPs.

    MJost
    148326, FGC-0FW1R, YSID6 & YF3272 R-DF13>FGC5494>*7448>*5496>*5521>*5511>*5539>*5538>* 5508>*5524
     
    Watterson USA GD1/67 & GD3/111, *5508+. GD1ís fatherís sister-23andme pred. 3rd Cous w/ 0.91% DNA shared-3 seg. Largest on Chr1 w/non-Euro admix affirms my NPE paternal Watterson line via aDNA & YDNA. A 2nd pred. 4th cous has same DKA b. 1840's Georgia and MDKA d 1703 IOM. 3rd Cousin FtDNA FF is from the Watterson Ala. *5538+ b. IOM w/ GD6/67 & GD8/111 -SGD3. FGC5539+ a Scot-Ross GD13/111 -SGD8

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    New CTS1751+ from Switzerland

    I noticed a new CTS1751+ man in the Bear-Barr project. N123029.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp
    He has been SNP tested via Geno2, but has no STRs.

    Ancestors name is Hans Jagli BAR born 1612 Switzerland.

    Still waiting on Big Y results for Whelan and Braswell.
    Will be interesting to see the comparisons between these two groups aswell as with the Case/
    Redden/Brewer Big Y results.

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    Big Y results and an 67 yDNA match from Italy?

    Just had the Big Y results in for Whelan 83115 and have sent the Raw data file to Mike W at the L21 project.
    Braswell should have his results soon.

    Other CTS1751+ men with Big y results are;
    N28444 Case
    141799 Redden
    28385 Brewer
    I hope they send their Raw results in aswell.


    We have another man matching us at 67 markers, who has kindly joined the Whalen - O'Faolain Project.
    313934, Lobbia from Italy. His results look like he might be CTS1751/L195.
    I hope they will do a SNP test.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

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    My grandfather is a Griffith, eldest Y ancestor from Cardigan Wales and he is G for rs11799049 (using his 23andme v2 raw data). This appears to be the derived allele and I guess I should test him for CTS1751 at FTDNA? He is kit #259187.

    **Edited to add L144 info. Looks like the snp is rs9306842, grandpa is A, which I assume means he is negative for 144? I don't know if this switched when he upgraded to v3, I have his v2 raw data but I can't find the snp under position 22711460. Does anyone know if this snp was listed under a different position in build 36?
    Last edited by Little bit; 09-06-2014 at 11:29 AM.
    My Gedmatch kits: M102536 (v3 upgrade); M054852 (v2); A449981 (Ancestry v1)
    Known: 87.5% UK/Ireland American Colonial; 12.5% PA Dutch Mennonites from Germany & Switzerland
    J1c3i mitochondrial ancestress was Swiss Mennonite from Conestoga, Lancaster PA

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