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Thread: German Ancestry... with Consistent Middle Eastern traces?

  1. #1
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    German Ancestry... with Consistent Middle Eastern traces?

    I hope this is in the right location; I apologize if it isn't!

    My mother is of, as far as we know, exclusive German descent (Saxony/Lower Saxony/Hannover/etc.). Her direct paper trails and surnames on both sides, into the 1700s (and beyond, most likely) are traced back to various locations in northern Germany, such as Lunzeneau, Löbtau, Dresden, etc.

    Her results for most ancestry sites and calculators have the expected hodge podge of Western Europe, Great Britain, Scandinavian, etc. However, one result keeps popping up that is seemingly unexpected and out of place: Middle Eastern. She consistently scores between 1 and 10% Middle Eastern on various results. For example... here are some of her Middle Eastern/related results:

    Ancestry:
    Middle Eastern: 3%

    MyHeritage:
    Middle Eastern: 4.9%

    Eurogenes K13:
    West Asian: 4.97
    Red Sea: 2.57

    MDLP World-22:
    Near East: 4.93

    Also, for what it is worth, I consistently display small traces of Middle Eastern as well; my father, who is of German and Dutch descent, never shows Middle Eastern in his results, across the board.

    I'm very much a greenhorn when it comes to Europe's ancient history with other places, but I am curious-- is it typical for people of primarily northern German ancestry to have consistent Middle Eastern results across the board? If so, perhaps this is just noise? If not, could someone point me in the right direction to find out more? I am not very familiar with the Middle East's interactions with northern Europe, so I am soaking up all the info I can get! I find this so absolutely fascinating, and look forward to your replies!

    Thanks in advance,

    MischievousRaven
    Ethnicity via Paper Trail (Rounded): 63% German, 16% Dutch, 6% Swiss, 6% Unknown, 3% Belgian, 3% French, 3% Colonial American (Irish, English, Welsh).

    Ancestry DNA Results: 64% Germanic Europe, 22% England/Wales/Northwest Europe, 6% Norway, 3% Baltic, 3% Sweden, 2% Slavic.

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  3. #2
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    Ashkenazi ancestor? My dad has a pair of Bavarian Ashkenazi 3rd great grandparents and has results not too different from yours:

    K13
    1 North_Atlantic 41.92
    2 Baltic 20.91
    3 West_Med 16.34
    4 East_Med 10.86
    5 West_Asian 5.89
    6 Red_Sea 1.73
    7 East_Asian 1.04
    8 Northeast_African 0.54


    MDLP 22
    4 Near_East 5.79
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    My parents and I all get around 7% West Asian on K13 -- mother's heritage is largely Scots, Irish, Swedish, English, and German, no known other source for it (and none likely); dad's is English, Welsh, some other Celtic, little French, little German. I think West Asian is just common among Europeans generally. Gedmatch shows the results for various ethnicities (click on spreadsheet) and North German on average seems to get around 7% West Asian and just under 1% Red Sea.

    That hasn't translated into Middle Eastern results on Ancestry, etc., for any of us (I usually get a small percentage of Caucasus although it varies), but probably the same sort of thing for you. I might click on the spreadsheet at Gedmatch and see if anything else is different from the average.
    Last edited by msmarjoribanks; 01-28-2018 at 05:32 AM. Reason: Typo

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    However, Jewish ancestor was my thought about what it might be if not just noise.

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    No known recent Jewish ancestry here; if it does exist, it would be pre-1700s. Her family, on both sides and pretty much every ancestor I have been able to track, has been associated with the Lutheran church.

    Thanks for the replies-- I have a lot to ponder!
    Last edited by MischievousRaven; 01-28-2018 at 05:42 AM.
    Ethnicity via Paper Trail (Rounded): 63% German, 16% Dutch, 6% Swiss, 6% Unknown, 3% Belgian, 3% French, 3% Colonial American (Irish, English, Welsh).

    Ancestry DNA Results: 64% Germanic Europe, 22% England/Wales/Northwest Europe, 6% Norway, 3% Baltic, 3% Sweden, 2% Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MischievousRaven View Post
    No known recent Jewish ancestry here; if it does exist, it would be pre-1700s. Her family, on both sides and pretty much every ancestor I have been able to track, has been associated with the Lutheran church.

    Thanks for the replies-- I have a lot to ponder!
    Not unusual: those two ancestors converted to Catholicism in the 1700s; so you could have an ancestor or two like that.

    It's kinda funny, they are the only German branch where I have any genealogy before 1700. The Ashkenazi line goes back to the 1500s. I think the Thirty Years War was not good for record retention.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by MischievousRaven View Post
    I hope this is in the right location; I apologize if it isn't!

    My mother is of, as far as we know, exclusive German descent (Saxony/Lower Saxony/Hannover/etc.). Her direct paper trails and surnames on both sides, into the 1700s (and beyond, most likely) are traced back to various locations in northern Germany, such as Lunzeneau, Löbtau, Dresden, etc.

    Her results for most ancestry sites and calculators have the expected hodge podge of Western Europe, Great Britain, Scandinavian, etc. However, one result keeps popping up that is seemingly unexpected and out of place: Middle Eastern. She consistently scores between 1 and 10% Middle Eastern on various results. For example... here are some of her Middle Eastern/related results:

    Ancestry:
    Middle Eastern: 3%

    MyHeritage:
    Middle Eastern: 4.9%

    Eurogenes K13:
    West Asian: 4.97
    Red Sea: 2.57

    MDLP World-22:
    Near East: 4.93

    Also, for what it is worth, I consistently display small traces of Middle Eastern as well; my father, who is of German and Dutch descent, never shows Middle Eastern in his results, across the board.

    I'm very much a greenhorn when it comes to Europe's ancient history with other places, but I am curious-- is it typical for people of primarily northern German ancestry to have consistent Middle Eastern results across the board? If so, perhaps this is just noise? If not, could someone point me in the right direction to find out more? I am not very familiar with the Middle East's interactions with northern Europe, so I am soaking up all the info I can get! I find this so absolutely fascinating, and look forward to your replies!

    Thanks in advance,

    MischievousRaven
    What do you get with Dna.Land? Do you have many matches from the Balkans, or southern Europe in general?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MischievousRaven View Post
    I hope this is in the right location; I apologize if it isn't!

    My mother is of, as far as we know, exclusive German descent (Saxony/Lower Saxony/Hannover/etc.). Her direct paper trails and surnames on both sides, into the 1700s (and beyond, most likely) are traced back to various locations in northern Germany, such as Lunzeneau, Löbtau, Dresden, etc.

    Her results for most ancestry sites and calculators have the expected hodge podge of Western Europe, Great Britain, Scandinavian, etc. However, one result keeps popping up that is seemingly unexpected and out of place: Middle Eastern. She consistently scores between 1 and 10% Middle Eastern on various results. For example... here are some of her Middle Eastern/related results:

    Ancestry:
    Middle Eastern: 3%

    MyHeritage:
    Middle Eastern: 4.9%

    Eurogenes K13:
    West Asian: 4.97
    Red Sea: 2.57

    MDLP World-22:
    Near East: 4.93

    Also, for what it is worth, I consistently display small traces of Middle Eastern as well; my father, who is of German and Dutch descent, never shows Middle Eastern in his results, across the board.

    I'm very much a greenhorn when it comes to Europe's ancient history with other places, but I am curious-- is it typical for people of primarily northern German ancestry to have consistent Middle Eastern results across the board? If so, perhaps this is just noise? If not, could someone point me in the right direction to find out more? I am not very familiar with the Middle East's interactions with northern Europe, so I am soaking up all the info I can get! I find this so absolutely fascinating, and look forward to your replies!

    Thanks in advance,

    MischievousRaven
    It is not always an East to West migration , but also a West to East migration .............could be middle east links due to German migration

    We have seen that celts migrating form western europe to the black sea and anatolia in BC times, we clearly see europeans migraitng to the levant in crusader times and others


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    My K13:

    N. Atlantic = 48.60
    Baltic = 22.64
    W. Med = 13.90
    E. Med = 6.26
    W. Asian = 5.28
    S. Asian = 1.23
    Amerind = 1.23
    N.E. Africa = 0.47
    Red Sea = 0.35

    The lower level results are a mystery to me.
    Last edited by Baltimore1937; 01-28-2018 at 07:27 PM.

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    The Red_Sea component peaks in Saudis, Bedoiuns and semitic-origin Ethopians. It is a marker for Arab Peninsula ancestry.
    Very few people in Germany and Austria can trace back to captured Turks (Beutetürken), who were chrisitanized and assimilated during the Ottoman wars, most in the 17th and 18th century.
    But this is very rare and you would probably be aware of because these people were usually more or less famous for their origins.
    Also, Turks and Jews don't really score that high in Red_Sea to give a significant amount to a very distant descendant, so I don't think this is a valid explanation for you, since you have no surplus East_Med.

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