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Thread: early R1a - M17 negative

  1. #1
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    early R1a - M17 negative

    I am looking to understand the early R1a clades like M720* and SRY1532.2* better. When R1a is discussed it rarely seems to be about the upstream of M17 aspect. I am guessing from the clade tables posted before that M17 is thought to date to around 6000BC. So I am curious about the earliest part of the R1a story from M420 until M17. I would guess that that must cover a long period of time from maybe as early as 16000BC to as late as 6000BC.

    Previous discussions tend to only focus on M17 down. I am interested in the early phase. For R-R1-early R1b working through all the new data and reading various papers on this, climate, archaeology etc pretty well made me come to the conclusion that R probably originated in north-west central Asia, R1 probably originated in northern Iran and R1b probably also. So, does this sort of model also fit for R1a upstream of M17?

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  3. #2
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    There aren't many documented guys between SRY1532.2 and M417 as you can see here:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

    The distribution of these few examples might conceivably point to an origin somewhere not too far from Eastern or Central Europe, but there's not much to go on, and the areas of interest to your query, around the Iranian Plateau, are very undertested. I rather suspect R1a-Z93 arose here, but I wouldn't say we have enough evidence to pin down the very early R1a before M417.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  4. #3
    Alan and AJL,

    Have you looked at the Geno 2.0 results for kit N114240? See http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ysnp .

    This kit has all the SNPs at the R1a level, but lacks the SNPs at the R1a1 level. Or at least that's what FTDNA is reporting. I haven't seen the raw data.

    Looks like there is also an à la carte M417- result for this kit.
    Last edited by cmorley; 09-17-2013 at 05:37 AM. Reason: Wrote 'ALJ' instead of 'AJL'. Sorry!

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    Thanks!

    Unfortunately he does not appear to be a project member of ours yet. He might possibly be M98+ M417-, which is rare but known to occur. This Arab instance together with the Belarussian examples might provide some credence for an origin somewhere between these two places, which could indeed mean the Iranian Plateau, but again samples are very scarce.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  6. #5
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    Any academic studies help on this subject. Its a heck of a gap in our knowledge about R1a, even worse than for early R1b. At least with R1b there is a little R1b*, and P25* to fill the gap. However, from the information presented so far on this thread there is very little between R1 and downstream of M17.
    Last edited by alan; 09-17-2013 at 06:26 PM.

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    I do not anticipate many academic studies on R1a being useful because they typically do not test enough markers to be meaningful, or cover a wide enough swath. The last (and maybe the only) breakthrough academic paper on R1a was Peter Underhill's, which announced the discovery of M458 in 2009.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJL View Post
    I do not anticipate many academic studies on R1a being useful because they typically do not test enough markers to be meaningful, or cover a wide enough swath. The last (and maybe the only) breakthrough academic paper on R1a was Peter Underhill's, which announced the discovery of M458 in 2009.
    Fully agree about the "last" past.

    Regarding the "only," true, Underhill's was excellent, but I still wish for more analysis like Passarino's - http://www.historycy.org/index.php?a...e=post&id=4537 - even though IMO his North of Black Sea origin theory for M17 still remains unproven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Fully agree about the "last" past.

    Regarding the "only," true, Underhill's was excellent, but I still wish for more analysis like Passarino's - http://www.historycy.org/index.php?a...e=post&id=4537 - even though IMO his North of Black Sea origin theory for M17 still remains unproven.
    Yes, it would be good to see some big-picture thinking like that with today's SNPS.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

  10. #9
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    Well Wiki drawing on underhill says

    [I]Only isolated samples of the new paragroup R-M420* were found by Underhill 2009, mostly in the Middle East and Caucasus: 1/121 Omanis, 2/150 Iranians, 1/164 in the United Arab Emirates, and 3/612 in Turkey. Testing of 7224 more males in 73 other Eurasian populations showed no sign of this category.(Underhill 2009)

    So, there is some parallel with these R1a paragroups and the R1b early paragroups as well as R1*. I find it odd that this tends not to be discussed in relation to R1a but does for R1b. The phenomena are similar. So it is likely the explanation is too.

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     R.Rocca (09-19-2013)

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    So, there is some parallel with these R1a paragroups and the R1b early paragroups as well as R1*. I find it odd that this tends not to be discussed in relation to R1a but does for R1b. The phenomena are similar. So it is likely the explanation is too.
    I suspect a lot of people in the know re early R1b like Vince V have paid attention to this, as have some R1a specialists and the R2 people, who are always interested in connecting to R1 as well. The issue is we don't actually have many project members at FTDNA conclusively tested as M420* so we can't test these subjects with TGP2 or Full Y, for example. But I do think the little we have points toward R1 arising near the Iranian Plain. Humanist posted a great map of early animal domestication in another thread, and there was apaprently quite a spread from this area about 10,000 y.a.
     

    Other ancestral Y lines:

    E1b-M81 Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    E1b-V13 England
    I1-M253 Ireland
    I2-M423 Ukraine
    R1a-L176.1 Scotland
    R1b-L584 Syria/Turkey (Sephardi)
    R1b-L20 Ireland
    R1b-L21 (1)England; (2)Wales?>Connecticut
    R1b-L48 England
    R1b-P312 Scotland
    R1b-FGC32576 Ireland

    Other ancestral mtDNA lines:

    H1b2a Ukraine (Ashkenazi)
    H6a1a3 Ukraine
    K1a9 Belarus (Ashkenazi)
    K1c2 Ireland
    V7a Ukraine

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