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Thread: How it was all clear from the beginning

  1. #21
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    I'm sure that this is just a friendly disagreement, but, just a friendly reminder: 3.12 Anthrogenica encourages its members to participate in discussions in a topic-focused manner. Personalization of discussions is completely prohibited at all times. This includes (and is not limited to) direct personal attacks, accusations, insinuations and false disclosures. Additionally, discussions that degenerate into inconsequential flaming or inanity will be deleted without prior notice. Note that this discussion policy also applies to Anthrogenica's Private Messaging and Visitor Message functions.

    Thanks guys.
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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I'm sure that must mean something to you somehow. I'm sure you think for yourself. Never said you didn't. We just disagree, so I think you get a lot wrong.
    You mean like how you were right that Post Neolithic southeast Europe had a higher population than Central Europe ?

    E1656756-4D94-4BFD-A41C-659F1ECF0F9D.jpeg

    Or that I continually am proven correct about R1b not just darting in from Siberia ?

    Or that there were some movements from balkans to steppe ?

    My theories are looking pretty fine, thanks


    I'm thinking your choice of words there is very revealing but really not of anything I hadn't figured out already. Maybe it will help others understand, however.
    The only thing which is revealing is your meltdown from the inception. As I said long ago, pay attention to counter- transference and strawmen.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 02-04-2018 at 05:48 AM.

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  5. #23
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    I gotta say; things are awfully quiet these days in terms of Ancient DNA. Perhaps we have been spoiled beyond satiation in the recent years. Interesting to know that Villabruna has been officially placed in the R1b-P297 branch and in the R1b-M73 branch. Thus; this means he was the great-great-great grand-daddy of the Latvians HG and ultimately Samara HG.

    https://kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b_xP312xU106_V.38.1.pdf

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    You mean like how you were right that Post Neolithic southeast Europe had a higher population than Central Europe ?

    E1656756-4D94-4BFD-A41C-659F1ECF0F9D.jpeg
    What are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    Or that I continually am proven correct about R1b not just darting in from Siberia ?
    You are? I must have missed that. Besides, who said R1b "darted in from Siberia"? Who cares, anyway?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gravetto-Danubian View Post
    The only thing which is revealing is your meltdown from the inception. As I said long ago, pay attention to counter- transference
    My meltdown? From the inception of what?

    I have a pretty good idea what inspires you.
     


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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    . . . Interesting to know that Villabruna has been officially placed in the R1b-P297 branch and in the R1b-M73 branch. Thus; this means he was the great-great-great grand-daddy of the Latvians HG and ultimately Samara HG.

    . . .
    Oh, come on. You know better than that. As far as we know, Villabruna left no y-dna descendants. But I guess he is all that is left to you, since Blätterhöhle turned out to be V88. Squeeze what you can out of him.
     


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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Oh, come on. You know better than that. As far as we know, Villabruna left no y-dna descendants. But I guess he is all that is left to you, since Blätterhöhle turned out to be V88. Squeeze what you can out of him.
    Boy you are really confrontational today! Have a look at the link that I provided; it comes from our very own Sergey Malyshev; updated by Atanas Kumbarov. It now places Villabruna in the same clade as:

    I0124, EHG, Lebyazhinka IV (Russia), 5640-5555 calBCE
    Villabruna (Italia), Epigravettian, 12 200-11 800 BC
    Latvia_HG2, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5841-5636 cal BC
    Latvia_HG3, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5302-4852 cal BC


    All of them derived for:

    M73, BY13043, BY13044, BY13045, BY13046, BY13047, BY13048, BY13049, S3511, Y13199, Y13200, Y13202, Y13203, Y13204, Y13206, Y13208, Y13209, Y13210, Y13871, Y13872, Y13873, Y13874, Y13875, Y13878, Y13879, Y13880, Y13881, Y13882, Y13883, Y13884, Y13885, Y13886, Y13887, Y13888

    But ancestral to:

    L1435, M478, Y13201, Y13207, Y13876, Y13877, Y13889, Y22569

    Moreover; how am I squeezing anything out of Villabruna; he isn't even in the M269 line. Him being related to the ancestral lineage that gave rise to the R1b-M73 found in the Latvians HG makes perfect sense; since we see a shift in WHG in the Latvians compared to the SHG. The same shift that we see in the Ukranians who become more WHG-like in the Neolithic but they get the R1b-V88 and R1b-V88 like lineages that were hanging out in the Balkans. Still; it seems the illusive R1b-M269 line is yet to be found; but it ain't in Ukraine. Only thing we know is that R1b-M73 went from Peninsular Europe to Western Russia and gave rise to Samara HG. Also; did you see this ATP3 in the M269 line in the link above? Oh boy; oh boy!

    To be fair; it does seem like Blatterhole were descendants of the Balkan R1b-V88 types that probably were carried away to Western Europe with farmers; so they are not related to the R1b-M269 line.

  10. #27
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    Check out this highly informative thread. Seems to complement this one pretty well.
     


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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    Boy you are really confrontational today! Have a look at the link that I provided; it comes from our very own Sergey Malyshev; updated by Atanas Kumbarov. It now places Villabruna in the same clade as:

    I0124, EHG, Lebyazhinka IV (Russia), 5640-5555 calBCE
    Villabruna (Italia), Epigravettian, 12 200-11 800 BC
    Latvia_HG2, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5841-5636 cal BC
    Latvia_HG3, Zvejnieki (Latvia), 5302-4852 cal BC


    All of them derived for:

    M73, BY13043, BY13044, BY13045, BY13046, BY13047, BY13048, BY13049, S3511, Y13199, Y13200, Y13202, Y13203, Y13204, Y13206, Y13208, Y13209, Y13210, Y13871, Y13872, Y13873, Y13874, Y13875, Y13878, Y13879, Y13880, Y13881, Y13882, Y13883, Y13884, Y13885, Y13886, Y13887, Y13888

    But ancestral to:

    L1435, M478, Y13201, Y13207, Y13876, Y13877, Y13889, Y22569

    Moreover; how am I squeezing anything out of Villabruna; he isn't even in the M269 line. Him being related to the ancestral lineage that gave rise to the R1b-M73 found in the Latvians HG makes perfect sense; since we see a shift in WHG in the Latvians compared to the SHG. The same shift that we see in the Ukranians who become more WHG-like in the Neolithic but they get the R1b-V88 and R1b-V88 like lineages that were hanging out in the Balkans. Still; it seems the illusive R1b-M269 line is yet to be found; but it ain't in Ukraine. Only thing we know is that R1b-M73 went from Peninsular Europe to Western Russia and gave rise to Samara HG. Also; did you see this ATP3 in the M269 line in the link above? Oh boy; oh boy!

    To be fair; it does seem like Blatterhole were descendants of the Balkan R1b-V88 types that probably were carried away to Western Europe with farmers; so they are not related to the R1b-M269 line.
    What’s also interesting is that Khvalynsk Eneolithic R1b is now on the same branch as Armenia EBA Kalavan Cave

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    . . . Still; it seems the illusive R1b-M269 line is yet to be found; but it ain't in Ukraine.
    We don't know that. We don't have any Yamnaya y-dna from the Pontic steppe, none from Mikhailovka, Kemi Oba, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    Only thing we know is that R1b-M73 went from Peninsular Europe to Western Russia and gave rise to Samara HG. Also; did you see this ATP3 in the M269 line in the link above? Oh boy; oh boy! . . .
    We don't know that. It is more likely that R1b-M73 went up the Volga to the Baltic.

    There you are still flogging the crappy ATP3 sample. One would think that by now something more to your liking would have come along, but it hasn't.

    At least you aren't able to beat the Blätterhöhle-pre-M269 drum anymore.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

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    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    We don't know that. We don't have any Yamnaya y-dna from the Pontic steppe, none from Mikhailovka, Kemi Oba, etc.
    Well; but we do have some Yamnaya y-DNA from Bulgaria and zero R1b-M269-L51. Also plenty of Ukrainian Neolithic samples; yet 0 R1b-M269-L51. Heck even the elusive R1a1a-M417 makes its appearance in Ukraine e-Neolithic Sredny Stog(North Pontic (Ukrainian) steppe); yet 0 R1b-M269-L51 there. So; either R1b-M269 came from the East or it must have not been in the Steppe at all. We do have aDNA from the East; but none of it is R1b-L51. SAD! But sure; we'll find R1b-L51 in the Pontic Steppe; except that we haven't:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1261376483

    Ukraine_Eneolithic Ukraine_Neolithic_outlier I4110 .. J2b1 5456 3634-3377 calBCE Dereivka Ukraine F 1.068 580868
    Ukraine_Eneolithic Ukraine_Eneolithic I6561 R1a1a1 H2a1a 6200 5000-3500 BCE Alexandria Ukraine M 1.422 738661
    Ukraine_Eneolithic_outlier Ukraine_Eneolithic I5883 R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2) U4a 5966 4296-3735 BCE Dereivka Ukraine M 0.158 166148
    Ukraine_Mesolithic Ukraine_Mesolithic I1733 .. U4b 10200 9000-7500 BCE Vasil'evka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Mesolithic Ukraine_Mesolithic I1734 R1b1a U5b2 9202 7446-7058 calBCE Vasil'evka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Mesolithic Ukraine_Mesolithic I1737 .. U5a2 10200 9000-7500 BCE Vasil'evka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Mesolithic Ukraine_Mesolithic I1763 I2a1 U5b2 10074 8280-7967 calBCE Vasil'evka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Mesolithic Ukraine_Mesolithic I1819 R1a U5b2 10643 8825-8561 calBCE Vasil'evka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Mesolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5885 .. U5b2b 8110 6392-5927 calBCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I1732 .. U4b 7239 5364-5213 calBCE Vovnigi Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I1736 .. U5b2b1 8109 6248-6070 calBCE Vasil'evka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I1738 I2a2a1b1b U5a2 7350 5473-5326 calBCE Vovnigi Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I3712 IJ U4b1a 7100 5500-4800 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I3713 I U4b1a 7100 5500-4800 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I3714 I2a2a U4d 7100 5500-4800 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I3715 I2a2a1b1 U2e1 7100 5500-4800 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I3716 I2 U5b2a1a 7100 5500-4800 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I3717 I2a2a1b1 U5a2a 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I3718 R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2) U5a1b 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I4111 .. U4d 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I4112 R U5a2a 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I4114 R1b1a U5a1 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5868 I U4d 7200 6500-4000 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5870 I2a2 U4b1b1 7200 6500-4000 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5872 I U5a2a 7200 6500-4000 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5873 .. U4b 7200 6500-4000 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5875 I2a2a1b U4a1 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5876 R1a U5a2a 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5881 R1 U5a1b 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5886 I U4a 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5889 .. U5a2a 6998 5310-4785 calBCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5890 R1b1a(xR1b1a1a,xR1b1a1a2) U5a1b 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5891 R U4d 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5892 R1b1a U4a1 7092 5301-4982 calBCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5893 R1b1 U5a2a 7100 5500-4800 BCE Dereivka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I5957 I T2 7200 6500-4000 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine
    Ukraine_Neolithic Ukraine_Neolithic I6133 .. U5b2a1a 7200 6500-4000 BCE Volniensky, Vilnianka Ukraine

    You see all the R1b-M269 flourishing in the Pontic Steppe. Do you see all the clades leading all the way down to R1b-M269? Yeah you do! You dawg!

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    We don't know that. It is more likely that R1b-M73 went up the Volga to the Baltic.
    Occam's Razor would suggest otherwise. Villabruna in the R1b-M73 line and being 100% WHG; Latvians about 80% WHG and 20% EHG per the latest Fu.et.al paper are R1b-M73 and R1b-P297 as early as 7500 BC. Samara HG is R1b-M73 circa 5000 BC. So your boy Samara HG was the great-great-great-...-great grandson of Villabruna or one of his siblings/cousins.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    There you are still flogging the crappy ATP3 sample. One would think that by now something more to your liking would have come along, but it hasn't.
    Well; perhaps let me draw another sample from the thousands of ancient DNA samples that we have from Iberia. Oh wait! Sorry; won't be able to do that. Sounds like you gonna have to get use to ATP3 being R1b-M269.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    At least you aren't able to beat the Blätterhöhle-pre-M269 drum anymore.
    Well; hear me now: Before the released of the data per the authors of the paper Blatterhohle had ancestral and derived SNPs in the R1b-M269 line. Given the evidence at the moment we could only based our assumptions based on what the authors were saying. No worries; as soon as new evidence showed up to demonstrate otherwise I was more than happy to reconsider the status of Blatterhohle in the R1b line. So; yeah! There is that!
    Last edited by jeanL; 02-04-2018 at 05:03 AM.

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