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Thread: DF96 under Z305

  1. #1
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    DF96 under Z305

    Up til now, the split of Z305/Z306 between DF96 and DF98 ("king's cluster") appeared to be predictable by the STR DYF395S1. DF96 men were usually 15-15, whereas DF98 men were 16-15. But now Wilson, kit 47991, who is 16-15 has tested positive for DF96.

    Not sure how to explain this other than coincidental parallel mutation. It should become clearer after more results come in.
    R1b-P312-DF7+ DF17+ CTS7768+ FGC14124+
    13-23-15-11-11-14-12-12-11-13-15-30
    Earliest known Y ancestor: Hesse, Germany 1705

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    Quote Originally Posted by breckenheimer View Post
    Up til now, the split of Z305/Z306 between DF96 and DF98 ("king's cluster") appeared to be predictable by the STR DYF395S1. DF96 men were usually 15-15, whereas DF98 men were 16-15. But now Wilson, kit 47991, who is 16-15 has tested positive for DF96.

    Not sure how to explain this other than coincidental parallel mutation. It should become clearer after more results come in.
    I am new to the board, so bear with me.
    I am supposedly a DF96 with a DYF395S1 of 15-16. Can you enlighten me as to its meaning, if any? Thanks!

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     Bollox79 (10-11-2018)

  5. #3
    I also have a STR DYF39551 of 15-16. Would I test positive for DF96 or DF98, or neither?

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     Bollox79 (10-11-2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by breckenheimer View Post
    Up til now, the split of Z305/Z306 between DF96 and DF98 ("king's cluster") appeared to be predictable by the STR DYF395S1. DF96 men were usually 15-15, whereas DF98 men were 16-15. But now Wilson, kit 47991, who is 16-15 has tested positive for DF96.

    Not sure how to explain this other than coincidental parallel mutation. It should become clearer after more results come in.
    Hmm... I think you might not have the DF98 motif correct - I am DF98 and also share some sub groups with Dr. Iain McDonald (he maintains the King's Cluster PDF and is also DF98+)... I'm sure Dr. Iain (he's the expert on the STRs etc) could tell you the percentage of likelihood you are DF98 if you have the 16-16 mutation at S395S1 - but I remember it's very high as in the early days when I would search for possible DF98 kits (helping Dr. Iain with some leg work) I would first look for DYS492 result to = 13 for U106 and then next I would look at S395S1 for the 16-16... chances are they were always DF98... if you do a quick search at the U106 DNA project and look down the DF98 positive groups - easily over 90% are 16-16... only a very small handful are 15-16 (maybe 3 at a quick glance). So DF98 men are almost always 16-16!

    I guess we can always have an exception to the rule though as a quick scan through DF96 at the U106 DNA project... I am sure I saw one or two DF96+ people who had 16-16... Dr. Iain would be the expert on this stuff though as he breaks down the STRs that seem be more common among certain SNP groups under DF98 etc in his King's Cluster pdf!

    Here is Dr. Iain's web site etc... http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html

    Cheers!!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 10-11-2018 at 02:32 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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    For the other questions on here... if you are 16-16 at S395S1 and also U106+ you are very likely to be DF98... but there are always exceptions. If you guys are U106 and tested at FTDNA make sure to join the U106 DNA project headed by Charles Moore and also join the U106 yahoo forum here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/info

    You can ask questions about testing etc on the forum... and all the experts are there... though they may not immediately answer as they are very busy working in the back ground!!!

    It's really important that we group all U106+ people together in one place so we can run comparisons and etc and you can benefit from Dr. Iain's dating and the group's expertise in U106 analysis! Also if you want copy my message and give it to any other U106+ people you know and think they may not be a member of the U106 DNA project or the U106 yahoo forum!

    Cheers!!!

    Additionally I maintain a google doc on ancient DNA samples that have been confirmed U106+. Have a look as I collect all the data and info on the burials that I can find: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing
    Last edited by Bollox79; 10-11-2018 at 02:38 AM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - Sķlastašir in Eyjafjaršarsżsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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    DF96 or DF98 with DYF395S1 STR results of: 15-16

    Quote Originally Posted by vramos11 View Post
    I am new to the board, so bear with me.
    I am supposedly a DF96 with a DYF395S1 of 15-16. Can you enlighten me as to its meaning, if any? Thanks!
    I'm revisiting this because no one ever answered or acknowledged it; and it appears is a gray area I also fall into.

    When looking at Mr.Thomas Krahns charts ,I also by definition of str numbers sitting closer to DF98 was assigned DF96.

    l seem to be in the Gray zone between DF98 and DF96
    with a DYF395S1 of 15-16 not following the pattern for normal DF96 assignment mentioned above.

    Can someone explain this phenomenon of some of us with DYF395S1 of 15-16 being call DF96?

    Also, can we revisit the variations now seen at DYF395S1? These branches containing findings of: 15-15,16-16,15-16,and 16-15?

    How are you distinguishing assignment into DF98 or DF96 at this point year 2019?

  10. #7
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    While STR results can be used to predict where a person would fall. SNP testing is still needed to prove the prediction is correct (or incorrect). In general, STRs mutate frequently (especially compared to SNPs) and parallel mutations as well as back mutations can occur.

    IIRC (If I recall correctly) Dr. Iain McDonald (the DF98 & DF96 guru) has stated where he can more confidently predict many subclades below DF98 & DF96 (based on STR results) than he can predict DF98 or DF96 itself. This is due to the fact of looking at multiple STR mutations. I also believe there were some subclades which "broke the rule" about DYF395S1 (but may be mistaken on this point).

    I don't think there is any difference between 15-16 and 16-15, but don't have any "proof" of this.
    Gedmatch DNA: M032736 Gedcom: 6613110.
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    co-administrator: Y-DNA R-U106 Haplogroup Project

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