ZZ37 & Z40481

[ajc347]

Quick question guys.

I've tested as being R-BY20474 positive via FGC Elite 2.1 and also at YSEQ. I've also tested as being positive for BY20464 (FGC72622) at FGC.

FTDNA has this SNP listed in their tree as being under ZZ37 as does Alex's P312 tree, with the routes being P312>ZZ37>BY20464>BY20474 at FTDNA and, following my submitting my data, P312>Z40481>ZZ37>FGC72599(BY20464)>BY20474(FGC7262 2) on Alex's tree. FTDNA does not list Z40481 in their tree (presumably because it is an STR and not and SNP).

FTDNA list ZZ37 and ZZ38 as being separate (and have confirmed that I am ZZ38- via the P312 SNP pack) and Alex's tree views them as being synonymous (but does indicate that their exact position is ambiguous). YSEQ won't test ZZ37 or ZZ38 due to them being in the unstable DYZ19 region. The Eupedia tree also gives a progression of P312>Z40481>ZZ37 but doesn't (as yet) list BY20464 or BY20474 in the tree.

My confusion comes with the inclusion of the Z40481 STR in SNP trees and the progression to ZZ37. I've tested negative for Z40481 at YSEQ and can't work out how I could then be positive for SNP's downstream of it?

[Webb]

Quick question guys.

I've tested as being R-BY20474 positive via FGC Elite 2.1 and also at YSEQ. I've also tested as being positive for BY20464 (FGC72622) at FGC.

FTDNA has this SNP listed in their tree as being under ZZ37 as does Alex's P312 tree, with the routes being P312>ZZ37>BY20464>BY20474 at FTDNA and, following my submitting my data, P312>Z40481>ZZ37>FGC72599(BY20464)>BY20474(FGC7262 2) on Alex's tree. FTDNA does not list Z40481 in their tree (presumably because it is an STR and not and SNP).

FTDNA list ZZ37 and ZZ38 as being separate (and have confirmed that I am ZZ38- via the P312 SNP pack) and Alex's tree views them as being synonymous (but does indicate that their exact position is ambiguous). YSEQ won't test ZZ37 or ZZ38 due to them being in the unstable DYZ19 region. The Eupedia tree also gives a progression of P312>Z40481>ZZ37 but doesn't (as yet) list BY20464 or BY20474 in the tree.

My confusion comes with the inclusion of the Z40481 STR in SNP trees and the progression to ZZ37. I've tested negative for Z40481 at YSEQ and can't work out how I could then be positive for SNP's downstream of it?

Alex posts here, but very infrequently. I would suggest emailing him. When you hold your mouse over Z40481 on Alex's tree the info box pops up stating that his Z-STR is at position 23316016 and then it explains that it is a deletion from 12 copies to 11 of TTTA. He goes on to say that because it is an STR there will be men or smaller braches which will have a repeat count different than what is expected.

[newm1988]

I'm a R1b-P312>ZZ37>ZZ38>Z29644/Z29645>S27900. I tested Z40481 on YSEQ and just came back negative for it.

The 2016 thread on Z40481 has only L624 (a/k/a Z30600) as positive and question marks for the other three branches of R-ZZ37. So unless other people have tested Z40481 from other branches of R-ZZ37 since 2016, R-ZZ37 is Z40481- in 2 of 3 branches.


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[ajc347]

I'm a R1b-P312>ZZ37>ZZ38>Z29644/Z29645>S27900. I tested Z40481 on YSEQ and just came back negative for it.

The 2016 thread on Z40481 has only L624 (a/k/a Z30600) as positive and question marks for the other three branches of R-ZZ37. So unless other people have tested Z40481 from other branches of R-ZZ37 since 2016, R-ZZ37 is Z40481- in 2 of 3 branches.


...

That's very interesting to hear and thank you for posting the result.

Are you listed on Alex's P312 tree and have you tested with FTDNA? If so, it might be worth letting Alex know, as well as joining the FTDNA R-ZZ37 group (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups.../activity-feed) and letting the group administrator know. I'm sure they'd both be interested to hear the outcome of the YSEQ test.

I'd also be interested to know if you have any confirmed results for either ZZ37 or ZZ38?

[newm1988]

I'm one of the ZZ37 admins, and my father is kit 28000 on both FTDNA and on Alex Williamson's Big Tree. My father's kit came up as positive for both ZZ37 and ZZ38 on a BAM analysis by Mr. Williamson. The limited evidence I am aware of points to FTDNA being correct and that there really is a split between ZZ37 and ZZ38 and that BY20474 is just under ZZ37 but not ZZ38.

In terms of Z40481, I do not know of any advanced SNP tests for any S27900 or Z29644/Z29645 other than Family Tree DNA Big Y tests. And as far as I can tell from numerous discussions with several other S27900 folks who have taken advanced tests, I am the only S27900 or Z29644/Z29645 who has ever tested for Z40481. If there is a Z29644/Z29645 out there with an FGC test, I'd really like to know about it! If I really am the only Z29644/Z29645 that has ever tested for Z40481 and all of the BY20474s who have tested for it are also negative, it would seem like one might need to reconsider whether ZZ37 really goes under Z40481. If a majority of ZZ37 subgroups tested for Z40481 are negative for it, perhaps the one group (Z30600) that tested positive had a recent mutation instead of the two groups testing negative randomly having the same back-mutation.

But again, we are working with very small sampling sizes and maybe there's a larger bunch of tests out there that are being considered that I am unaware of.

[newm1988]

CORRECTION/FOLLOW-UP: After YSEQ did a further review of my Z40481 test, it turns out that I am positive for Z40481.

So that means ZZ37>ZZ38>Z29644/Z29645>S27900 subgroup has at least one test that is confirmed Z40481+.

[ajc347]

CORRECTION/FOLLOW-UP: After YSEQ did a further review of my Z40481 test, it turns out that I am positive for Z40481.

So that means ZZ37>ZZ38>Z29644/Z29645>S27900 subgroup has at least one test that is confirmed Z40481+.

I've just received clarification from YSEQ that my sample does, in fact, actually have 11 repeats like the hg38 reference sequence, hence it would appear that my updated results now also show me as being Z40481+.

Many thanks again to you and Alex for helping to sort this situation out. It really is much appreciated.

[newm1988]

Alex Williamson recently added the ancient Scottish DNA kit I2860 to his BigTree under the L624 subgroup (a/k/a R-30597 or R-30598). This is a branch of R-ZZ37. The sample was found in ancient human remains in Covesea Cave in Scotland.

You can see this on BigTree here: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=4063

The sample is estimated as being about 2740 years old per the summary tables to this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...MC5973796/#SD1


This is an interesting development and as far as I am aware is the only ancient DNA sample which anyone has said is in any branch of R-ZZ37.