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Thread: Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans (R1a1a1 M417, R1b1a2a1 L51) (R1b L23?, R1b M73?, Etc.)

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    Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans (R1a1a1 M417, R1b1a2a1 L51) (R1b L23?, R1b M73?, Etc.)

    Archaeology and common Y DNA in modern Indo European speakers which age estimates show migrations starting in certain areas 7,000-5,000ybp. Show that Indo European languages most likely started, or took off and spread from these areas.



    Traditionally in the Kurgan theoryproto Indo European languages began around Bug Dniester culture in Ukraine about 7,000ybp and in Yamna culture in Russia and Dnieper Donets Ukraine starting about 5,600ybp. Since there are 6,000 year old Kurgans in both southeast Poland and Caucus that kind of extends were very early Indo Europeans were to the Caucus and north mid east and deeper in Europe.

    So far we know that R1a1a1 M417 is for sure a proto Indo European marker and is from the Dnieper Donets and Yamna Ukraine Russia area. It spread with Balto Slavic languages out of Yamna culture forming into Corded ware around 5,000ybp and R1a1a1b1 Z283. Indo Iranian migrating out of Yamna culture forming into Sinshat and Abashevo and Y DNa R1a1a1b2 Z93.

    Also Y DNA from supposedly proto Balto Slavic culture Corded ware two from 4,800ybp in Poland were G and I or J and two from 4,600ybp in central Germany were at least R1a1a M17. Seven Y DNA samples from 4,000 year old Tarim mummies in west China who were suspected to be connected with early Indo Iranian speakers all were at least R1a1a M17. Four 3,800-3,400 year old Y DNA samples from supposedly early Indo Iranian Andronovo culture in central Siberia three had at least R1a1a M17 and one had C probably from Mongoloid Siberians.

    So Y DNA from cultures the Kurgan theory say were early Indo Iranian or early Balto Slavic speakers all back up the idea that R1a1a1 M417 is a early early Indo European Y DNA haplogroup from the Ukraine-Russia Bug Dniester-Yamna cultures. There is also a western European branch most likely from Germanic Italo Celts R1a1a1a L664. The proto Germanic Italo Celts were dominated by R1b1a2a L23 then R1b1a2a1 L51 but they probably picked up some R1a1a1 M417 since they were so close to other Indo Europeans in Russia Ukraine area 5,000-6,000ybp. So it seems they then formed their own branch. So the common ancestor of all those Indo European R1a branches is R1a1a1 M417.

    Here is a migration map of Indo European R1a1a1 M417 made by Eupedia.


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    The other just about for sure Y DNA that spread with Indo European languages is Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51. R1b L51-L11 Germanic Italo Celtc. What is weird is unlike R1a1a1 M417 which shows its origin in the traditional areas by the kurgan theory to be the Indo European homeland. R1b1a2a1 L51 father's seems to be from the middle east around Iraq, Anatolia, and the Caucus. It's father R1b1a2a L23 is centered in those areas and popular in the Balkans in southeastern Europe. I could not find any other info about the origin of R1b1a2a L23 but from what I have seen people say it comes from a migration out of the middle east.

    Since there is a 6,000 year old Kurgan in the Caucus and Maykop culture (5,700-4,500ybp) in the Caucus and north eastern Anatolia. Shows very early Indo Europeans were in that area which could be were this R1b is from. I don't really know but since Germanic Italo Celt father R1b1a2a L23 is so popular even as south as Iraq makes me think that possibly Maykop had a origin around there and maybe proto Indo European or proto proto Indo European languages originated around that area.

    R1b1a2a L23 then could be considered as a Indo European Y DNA haplogroup. But since it is so popular in areas that were never Indo European well I guess the Kurds and the Medes but they were Indo Iranians and we know have nothing to do with R1b1a2a L23. I think most is not Indo European. R1b1a2a2 Z2103 might be connected with Anatolian, Greek, and Indo European languages around the Balkans like Thracian-Dacian and Illyrian. Also R1b M73 shows connection of spreading with Indo Iranian languages but probably did not originate with Indo European speakers like R1a1a1 M417 and R1b1a2a1 L51 probably did.


    Eupedia migration map of R1b. I dis agree with R1b1a2 M269 originating in Europe. I think R1b made the same type of migration out of the mid east to Europe but as R1b1a2a L23.


    Here is a map of R1a in Europe. Almost all is under Indo European R1a1a1 M417. The vast majority is under Balto SlavicCorded ware culture R1a1a1b1 Z283.

    Here is a total map of R1a. Seems like who ever made this had less info than Eupedia. Almost all is under Indo European r1a1a1 M416 i already explained in Europe for Asia and parts of north eastern Europe it is just about 100% Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 Z93.


    Map of R1b in Europe. Almost all is under Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L51 except in the mid east, southeastern Europe, and Mediterranean were this is some R1b1a2a L23.


    Map of Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a1 S116/P312.


    Map of Germanic R1b1a2a1a2 S21/U106.


    U can see by these maps Indo European Y DNA is extremely popular. The reason is Indo Europeans spread their language, culture, and religion almost only by conquest. So the native men were killed way more than the native women because they fought in wars and were seen as a threat. Also when Indo Europeans won they could force as many native women to be their wives. So they had way more offspring with the native women than Indo European women had with native men and in pretty much all cultures women are only allowed to have one husband while in some and alot of ancient ones men could have about as many wives and mistresses as they wanted. High ranking people and Chiefs sometimes had over 1,000 women. So this lead to Indo European speaking people direct male lineage to be heavily Indo European.

    Indo European speaking people dont mainly descend from the first people to speak their language almost all mainly descend from people who lived in that area before their language spread, Except for maybe people in the British isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Haired View Post

    Here is a migration map of Indo European R1a1a1 M417 made by Eupedia.

    While the overall scheme looks about correct I think these time lines are suspect.
    A couple of points.
    1. Western Europe is the more likely point of origin for R1a-M417.
    2. Eupedia's map look to be missing the presence of L657 in Arabia, the likelier route into India would be through the Middle East rather than Central Asia.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    While the overall scheme looks about correct I think these time lines are suspect.
    A couple of points.
    1. Western Europe is the more likely point of origin for R1a-M417.
    2. Eupedia's map look to be missing the presence of L657 in Arabia, the likelier route into India would be through the Middle East rather than Central Asia.
    You are in a minority with both of those viewpoints.
    Last edited by newtoboard; 09-19-2013 at 02:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    You are in a minority with both of those viewpoints.
    Others think that it is possible too, but yes I am a minority in thinking that western Europe is more likely place of origin for M417.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    ...

    In other words, the fact that the two major sub-branches of M417 expanded most likely from the opposite ends of the European continent make nearly every location between Atlantic and Ural almost equally likely candidate for a potential homeland of M417. Of course, when taking into account some additional information (including all the data provided by archaeology, ancient DNA and the phylogenetic relationship between R1a, R1b, R2, P and Q), it seems much more likely that R1a-M417 was born in Eastern Europe rather than in the North-Western part of this continent.

    ...
    Regarding L657 I have not seen any analysis indicating that it entered India from Central Asia.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Others think that it is possible too, but yes I am a minority in thinking that western Europe is more likely place of origin for M417.



    Regarding L657 I have not seen any analysis indicating that it entered India from Central Asia.

    And where is the analysis showing R1a-L657+ entered India from Arabia? How do you know R1a-L657+ didn't originate in South Asia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    And where is the analysis showing R1a-L657+ entered India from Arabia? How do you know R1a-L657+ didn't originate in South Asia?
    IMO, a South Asian origin for L657 is the likeliest, followed by an Arabian or Persian one, followed by Central Asian one.
    I am not saying that L657 entered India from the Middle East, just that if L657 entered India from outside then Middle East is likelier than Central Asia.

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    i think the traditional Kurgan hypothesis looks like a subset of the IE story and it doesnt work alone. Most IE does not look like it was spread by Kurgan building steppe nomads. All they seem to have done is Europe is reached the most steppe-like areas of Europe like parts of Hungary etc, similar to the areas settled by later steppe intruders. The question still remains open IMO as to whether steppe cultures are the actual origins of PIE or if they were just among its receivers and a secondary spreader. The collapse of old Europe as much as the intrusion of the steppes peoples at the same time does create a major population dispersal scenario. It is also a scenario of dispersal of people who were already farmers and could spread into farming zones while steppe intruders seem to have confined themselves to steppe type areas when they spread into old Europe.

    Prior to that period, it was the farmers in and around the Balkans that were sending out settlers even into steppe type cultures like Sredny Stog and its variants. They were like go-between in the first metallurgical province that spread from the Balkans into the steppes as far as the Urals. There are also lithic changes that flowed in the same direction. It has also been shown that farming type peoples, particularly on the male side were to some extent involved in Sredny Stog related groups. There is no doubt who was the donor and who was the receiver in this relationship at that time. Given that similar models in reverse have been presented for the spread of IE across Europe, I dont think it can be ruled totally out that the influence and apparently movement of farming groups beyond the Cuc-Tryp area would have spread languages. I particularly wonder about the Sredny Stog groups on the Dnieper and east to the Don at the boundary with farmer groups. They not only seemed to be strongly under the influence of farming groups and acting as a go between in the Balko-Carpathian metal trade but they also seem to include farming people in their mix, especially males. I certainly wouldnt be surprised if this was capable of spreading languages. Its certainly on the same level of evidence for IE languages spreading west within the Kurgan theory.

    I just dont think its a close case as yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    While the overall scheme looks about correct I think these time lines are suspect.
    A couple of points.
    1. Western Europe is the more likely point of origin for R1a-M417.
    2. Eupedia's map look to be missing the presence of L657 in Arabia, the likelier route into India would be through the Middle East rather than Central Asia.
    Since Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 and Indo Iranian R1a1a1b2 and Germanic R1a1a1a all decend from R1a1a1 M417 urkiane Russia area is most likley were it orignated. about Indo Iranian R1a coming from the mid eastl U dont understand the whole background in Indo Iranians today they only live in the mid east the ones like Sycthians in central asia were conquered by Tukrs in the mid ages. Indo Iranian languages used to dominate central Asia and from there went to the mid east they did not arrive in India and Iran till 3,500ybp.

    Since By archaeology early Indo Iranian cultures Abashevo and Sinshta trace back to north eastern Europe then central asia then their father is Yamna in Russia and Ukraine. Again the mid east source doesn't make sense. There has been Y DNA testing on suspected early Indo Iranian Andronovo culture in south and central Siberia from 3,800-3,400ybp before Indo Iranian languages arrived in India and they had R1a1 also they had pale skin and mixed fair hair and brown hair and fair eyes and brown eyes obviously originally from Europe. The origin of Indo European R1a1a1 M417 and how it spread is being figured out pretty well.

    The Arabian R1a i would like to know what its other name is like R1a13bh? that helps alot so u know were it fits in the tree. If it is not descended from R1a1a1 M417 or R1a1a1b1 Z92 that would be huge news and evidence for R1a being originally from the mid east.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    i think the traditional Kurgan hypothesis looks like a subset of the IE story and it doesnt work alone. Most IE does not look like it was spread by Kurgan building steppe nomads. All they seem to have done is Europe is reached the most steppe-like areas of Europe like parts of Hungary etc, similar to the areas settled by later steppe intruders. The question still remains open IMO as to whether steppe cultures are the actual origins of PIE or if they were just among its receivers and a secondary spreader. The collapse of old Europe as much as the intrusion of the steppes peoples at the same time does create a major population dispersal scenario. It is also a scenario of dispersal of people who were already farmers and could spread into farming zones while steppe intruders seem to have confined themselves to steppe type areas when they spread into old Europe.

    Prior to that period, it was the farmers in and around the Balkans that were sending out settlers even into steppe type cultures like Sredny Stog and its variants. They were like go-between in the first metallurgical province that spread from the Balkans into the steppes as far as the Urals. There are also lithic changes that flowed in the same direction. It has also been shown that farming type peoples, particularly on the male side were to some extent involved in Sredny Stog related groups. There is no doubt who was the donor and who was the receiver in this relationship at that time. Given that similar models in reverse have been presented for the spread of IE across Europe, I dont think it can be ruled totally out that the influence and apparently movement of farming groups beyond the Cuc-Tryp area would have spread languages. I particularly wonder about the Sredny Stog groups on the Dnieper and east to the Don at the boundary with farmer groups. They not only seemed to be strongly under the influence of farming groups and acting as a go between in the Balko-Carpathian metal trade but they also seem to include farming people in their mix, especially males. I certainly wouldnt be surprised if this was capable of spreading languages. Its certainly on the same level of evidence for IE languages spreading west within the Kurgan theory.

    I just dont think its a close case as yet.
    I totally get what ur saying. The Kurgen hypthiesis so far can only explain the spread of Balto SLavic(R1a1a1b1 Z283) and iNdo Iranian (R1a1a1b2 Z93). The R1b1a2a1a L11 in Germanic Italo Celts orignally has a mid eastern origin its grandfather o great great grandfathers. So I als think the steppe like Yamna are just one part of Indo Europeans not the origin. I still think Kurgens are huge maybe doesn't explain all spread of Indo Europeans or proto Indo Europeans but is important. The Neloithic stuff no way do i agree with that deifntley does not math Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe or Balto Slavic in eastern and probably not Thracens-Dacians, Greeks, and Iyllirans.

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