Page 2 of 30 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 298

Thread: Picts/Caledonians, Britons and Gaels, what's the difference?

  1. #11
    Banned
    Posts
    115
    Location
    GOYIM
    Ethnicity
    Maltese & British
    Nationality
    GOYIM
    Y-DNA (P)
    Sicilian
    mtDNA (M)
    Celtic

    England North of England Malta Scotland Isle of Man
    Is it possible the picts were a stoic leftover population of pre Indo Europeans? Their ogham inscriptions seem to be unintelligible

  2. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,203
    Sex
    Location
    Brisbane
    Nationality
    Australian
    Y-DNA (P)
    T-P322 (T1a2b1)
    mtDNA (M)
    H6a1

    Australia Cornwall England Scotland Germany Poland
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I think we'll need some ancient dna to sort that out
    Thoroughly agree.
    So far POBI and Irish DNA atlas have told us that there are differences between current different geographical areas.
    YDNA studies linked to surnames/clans have also made a sizable contribution, but even there conclusions are not always clear.
    There was lots of movement going on back and forth across Britain over the past few thousand years.
    Trying to work out what happened from current samples is proving difficult.
    We need more data - ideally from historical samples.
    For some reason, GB has been fairly poor at that.
    Germany, for example, is way ahead of UK.

  3. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Saetro For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (02-10-2018),  JMcB (02-10-2018),  JohnHowellsTyrfro (02-10-2018),  Nqp15hhu (06-09-2021),  Onur Dincer (02-10-2018),  rms2 (02-10-2018),  Wolds Wanderer (02-14-2018)

  4. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    170
    Sex
    Location
    Scotland
    Ethnicity
    English
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-FGC53506
    mtDNA (M)
    H2a1

    England North of England Cornwall
    Not unintelligible, merely slightly illegible. Since they're mainly a series of linear scratches on stone (and the odd knife-handle or spindle-whorl), they weather badly, and are decidedly spelling-challenged. Those that have been tackled recently are rendered as various rustic flavours of Insular Celtic, maybe some Gaulishy bits, some degraded Latin loans, with a hint of intriguing early Norse in some Northern Isles (Orkney, Shetland) inscriptions. There seems to have been a valiant attempt by the writers to render the necessarily messy consonant variants of Gaelicky/Brythonicky speech by reduplication and substitution at work as well. But the decipherable elements are proper celtic words and formulae, which in the later phase show the influence of early latinising clerical speech. As would be expected on monuments.
    The mainland unromanised Britons (north of Those Walls) who were literate may well have done their writing on parchment, and they had access to papyrus, amazingly (trade from Gaul along with all that E-Ware, amphorae and glass vessels. And their delicious contents?). Most writing would have been done in Latin (-ish) with the vernacular reserved for private, personal chattels and public inscriptions (along with the famous symbols, for the unlettered).
    Early "Welsh" poetry is quite clear about the Brython/Cruithin affinities of those from "beyond Bannawg", the Campsie Fells north of the Antonine Wall, the Clyde, and the Forth.
    Last edited by glentane; 02-10-2018 at 02:26 AM.

  5. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to glentane For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (02-10-2018),  CannabisErectusHibernius (02-11-2018),  JMcB (02-10-2018),  Judith (02-11-2018),  Megalophias (02-10-2018),  Nqp15hhu (06-09-2021),  Onur Dincer (02-10-2018),  palamede (02-10-2018),  PerceptionDeception (02-10-2018),  rms2 (02-10-2018),  Ruderico (02-10-2018),  Saetro (02-11-2018)

  6. #14
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,806
    Sex
    Location
    America
    Ethnicity
    North & Ionian Seas
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 (P109)

    England Italy Germany Scotland
    from my understanding... and I'm using layman terms so bear with me, the Irish were the least influenced by outside ethnicities. then the Scottish (eastern) had influence from the Scandinavians. England seems to have the most outside influence: from the Romans, Scandinavians, and Germans.

  7. #15
    Banned
    Posts
    115
    Location
    GOYIM
    Ethnicity
    Maltese & British
    Nationality
    GOYIM
    Y-DNA (P)
    Sicilian
    mtDNA (M)
    Celtic

    England North of England Malta Scotland Isle of Man
    You seem to be talking about relatively recent changes there Jerry, I'm more interested in pre-Anglo Saxon era DNA

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to PerceptionDeception For This Useful Post:

     JerryS. (02-11-2018)

  9. #16
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by PerceptionDeception View Post
    Ah OK I'll have a look. What do you personally believe caused a separation between the Caledonians/Picts and the Britons?
    IMHO, Picts were Britons, speaking a P-Celtic dialect like the rest of the Britons.

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     glentane (02-11-2018),  JMcB (02-10-2018),  sktibo (02-10-2018)

  11. #17
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by PerceptionDeception View Post
    Is it possible the picts were a stoic leftover population of pre Indo Europeans? Their ogham inscriptions seem to be unintelligible
    No, that's an obsolete idea. There is no real reason to regard the Picts as anything other than Celtic Britons.

    According to the recent Olalde et al paper, The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe, Britain experienced a massive population replacement (>93%) over a few hundred years, beginning with the arrival of the Bell Beaker people in about 2300 BC. It is likely the Bell Beaker people brought early Italo-Celtic speech to Britain with them.

    There were no large bands of pre-IE left in Britain.

    From Olalde et al, page 7:

    In either case, our results imply a minimum of 93±2% local population turnover by the Middle Bronze Age (Supplementary Information, section 6). Specifically, for individuals from Britain around 2000 BCE, at least this fraction of their DNA derives from ancestors who at 2500 BCE lived in continental Europe. An independent line of evidence for population turnover comes from Y-chromosome haplogroup composition: while R1b haplogroups were completely absent in the Neolithic samples (n=25), they represent 95% and 75% of the Y-chromosomes in Beaker Complex-Early Bronze Age and Middle Bronze Age males in Britain, respectively (Fig. 3b; Supplementary Table 3).

  12. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (02-10-2018),  msmarjoribanks (02-11-2018),  Saetro (02-11-2018),  sktibo (02-10-2018),  Wolds Wanderer (02-14-2018)

  13. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,778
    Sex
    Location
    Dún Laoire, Bláth Cliath, Éire
    Ethnicity
    Gael
    Nationality
    Éireanach
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41
    mtDNA (M)
    U4d3

    Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by PerceptionDeception View Post
    Ah OK I'll have a look. What do you personally believe caused a separation between the Caledonians/Picts and the Britons?
    PAX ROMANA

    I imagine at time of Roman invasion of Southern Britain in 1st century BC the term 'Caledonian' was more geographic than a ethnic distinguisher. Of course we have to remember that Southern Britain had received a Gaulish/Belgic input in the 2-300 years before Roman conquest which wouldn't have been reflect in the North of Britain.

    Over the course of Roman occupation of Brittania there was obviously language shift/change. 'Proto-Brythonic' (to use a term for common ancestor of Welsh, Cornish, Cumbric, Breton) had undergone significant change due to contact with Latin, both in terms of loanwords and accent/prononunication. Some have even argued that there appears to be evidence of Latin speakers undergoing language shift to 'Proto-Brythonic' (in immediate pre-AS period) that resulted in Latin phonology having an affect. There was also several sound-changes that don't appear to happened in Pictish.

    We can only really talk about the Picts from 5th century onwards, so you are talking about 3-500 years language divergence between Southern and Northern Britain.
    (R1b-DF41+)
    (MtDNA: U4d3)

    How to pronounce my username (modern Irish):
    Hidden Content

  14. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dubhthach For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (02-10-2018),  glentane (02-11-2018),  Saetro (02-11-2018),  TopLobster (02-18-2018)

  15. #19
    Registered Users
    Posts
    893
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a CTS11962+L1029+
    mtDNA (M)
    H80

    European Union Germany Italy
    i guess its all shrouded in folklore and mystery, yet the picts were said to be scythians and differing from the ireland derived scoti; depends how much merits such folklore stories have and what historical context to place them, specially interesting the 'Tuatha Dé Danann' who are placed at the times of the rathlin boys;
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PEN. 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10C.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN

  16. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,044
    Sex
    Location
    South Wales
    Ethnicity
    Mostly Welsh,+ flags
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a- Z283 - Y128147
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1a

    Wales Scotland Ireland Cornwall United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by PerceptionDeception View Post
    Ah OK I'll have a look. What do you personally believe caused a separation between the Caledonians/Picts and the Britons?
    Genetic drift, due to isolation.
    Gedmatch
    Kit Num: M129412, QA3736362
    23andme
    Hidden Content
    LivingDNA
    Hidden Content

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to [email protected] For This Useful Post:

     msmarjoribanks (02-11-2018),  Saetro (02-11-2018)

Page 2 of 30 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Origin of the Gaels or Goidelic Celts
    By BillMC in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 03-21-2020, 10:11 PM
  2. Replies: 42
    Last Post: 01-22-2019, 12:05 AM
  3. On the Nature of the Picts
    By JMcB in forum History (Medieval)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-26-2017, 09:00 PM
  4. BBC Horizon: The First Britons
    By avalon in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-20-2015, 04:32 PM
  5. Horizon - First Britons.
    By JohnHowellsTyrfro in forum History (Ancient)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-20-2015, 06:01 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •