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Thread: Picts/Caledonians, Britons and Gaels, what's the difference?

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    What do you think of the etymological significance of the word Caledonian?

    According to Zimmer (2006), Caledonia is derived from the tribal name Caledones (or Calīdones), which he etymologizes as "'possessing hard feet', alluding to standfastness or endurance", from the Proto-Celtic roots *kal- "hard" and *φēdo- "foot".

    That's one of the reasons I thought they might have been ore In do European, as in they possessed strong feet and were not moved away by newer peoples.

    I suppose that's my imagination playing with itself.

  2. #22
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    In comparison Ireland appears to have been cut-off from Britain for about 5-600 years in period after 800BC. Archaelogists often term this period a 'Dark age' due to minimum amount of finds etc. Some have even gone so far to claim that the Irish Iron age is a 'hidden age' given that there is so little finds etc and the apparent signs of low population etc.

    What's interesting about this of course is that some of work done on Indo-European linguistics suggested a spilt between Brythonic and Goidelic branches of Celtic as early as 900BC (2,900 years ago).



    Now that's from a 2003 letter to Nature, and they used modern versions of language to try and recreate spilt points. But it should be pointed out that authors writing in 'Old Irish' in period 600-1000AD never draw a connection between the Irish (Gael) and Britions, if anything they basically regard them as totally foreign even though they are linguistic brethren.

    So basically a key difference is linguistic/socio-political. To be a 'Gael' not only did you have to be Irish speaking but ye would subscribe to a notion of common kinship where all 'Gael' descend from the so-called son's of Míl. This was a political construct drawn up in the 8th century. What's evident at least during the period after arrival of christianity is that Irish and Welsh were not mutually understandable languages.
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerceptionDeception View Post
    It seems that the Gaels had/have an Iberian influence that Britons and Caledonians don't have
    Maybe you are mixing up the Gaels with th Silurians? Who one of the Romans hypothesis was that they could be related to the Iberians, but don’t forget allot of the Iberians at that time were also Celtic.
    There could well have been trading and moving of peoples along North Atlantic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    i guess its all shrouded in folklore and mystery, yet the picts were said to be scythians and differing from the ireland derived scoti; depends how much merits such folklore stories have and what historical context to place them, specially interesting the 'Tuatha Dé Danann' who are placed at the times of the rathlin boys;
    I don't trust any such folk stories, especially post-Christian ones as they were mostly written to legitimise creationism and link they Irish people into Noah, such as the story of Goidel Glas or the Mil Éspaine myth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    They surely had other subclades of R1b-P312 as well, at least Britons. Roman-era samples prove this.

    They also had some I2 of course.
    Right. 6DRIF23 looks autosomally like an Insular Celt, but the mechanics of DF19 distribution are not clear. Certainly not all Z17112 are Insular Celts, but this guy's ancestry in ~300AD makes him ook like one.

    Z17112 (one of DF19's most successful subclades, at least 10 distinct subclade lines from his sons/grandsons surviving to Big Y) formed around the bronze age collapse and is now spread around North Atlantic Europe. Without more research, it's hard to tell a lot more, though.I

    I'm hoping Olalde's published data might turn something up.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerceptionDeception View Post
    I don't trust any such folk stories, especially post-Christian ones as they were mostly written to legitimise creationism and link they Irish people into Noah, such as the story of Goidel Glas or the Mil Éspaine myth
    I don't trust those stories either, but they weren't written to "legitimize creationism": there was no need - everyone already believed that God created the world (I believe that myself; I'm just not sure exactly what techniques He used).

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    i guess its all shrouded in folklore and mystery, yet the picts were said to be scythians and differing from the ireland derived scoti; depends how much merits such folklore stories have and what historical context to place them, specially interesting the 'Tuatha Dé Danann' who are placed at the times of the rathlin boys;
    I believe it was actually the Scotti who were said to be from Scythia. Those old monkish scholars were big on seeing supposed connections between words that could be interpreted as similar, i.e., Scot and Scyth.

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    IMO, Picts were P-Celtic speaking Britons, however, they may have been influenced by the Gaels well before Dal Riata - lots of archaeological evidence to indicate this was going on for a good while. I think the result of that would be a group that falls (somewhere) in between the Britons of the south and the Irish on a genetic graph.
    Oddly enough, this is where modern day Scottish people appear to fall on PCA charts such as the IDA, but for different reasons I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    There were no large bands of pre-IE left in Britain.

    From Olalde et al, page 7:

    In either case, our results imply a minimum of 93±2% local population turnover by the Middle Bronze Age (Supplementary Information, section 6). Specifically, for individuals from Britain around 2000 BCE, at least this fraction of their DNA derives from ancestors who at 2500 BCE lived in continental Europe. An independent line of evidence for population turnover comes from Y-chromosome haplogroup composition: while R1b haplogroups were completely absent in the Neolithic samples (n=25), they represent 95% and 75% of the Y-chromosomes in Beaker Complex-Early Bronze Age and Middle Bronze Age males in Britain, respectively (Fig. 3b; Supplementary Table 3).
    But there seems to be a north-south cline with more of Neolithic British ancestry surviving in Scotland than in England:





    ^^^
    I mapped the locations of those 34 samples (blue = has Britain Neolithic admix, red = doesn't have, large dot = I2a):

    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-10-2018 at 05:58 PM.

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    Here's a map I found for the l2a2 haplogroup. Seems not to be uncommon in scotland, Scandinavia and germany.
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