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Thread: Haplogroup J2 and the indo-european languages

  1. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    What about elite dominance of J among R as a source of IE lang. ?
    What about the Rs taking the Indo-European language of the captured women they had north and south of the Caucuses.

    The Bell and Beaker was according to a science article brought to England by R1bs. But on the mainland, it was a an I phenomenon. What most likely happened was the Rs took the women from the mainland who knew how to do the pottery and brought the captive women to the male desolated Britain. Bell and Beaker was not brought with the proto-Celts from the Balkans. So the proto-Celts adopted this pottery from captured women, perhaps like they may have adopted the Indo-European languages from their captured women.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ncient-britons

    The article fails to mention the female lines of Britain survived. The mtDNA that existed prior to the invasion, exist to this very day in Britain. So once again the women survived, the men vanished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Messier 67 View Post
    What about the Rs taking the Indo-European language of the captured women they had north and south of the Caucuses.

    The Bell and Beaker was according to a science article brought to England by R1bs. But on the mainland, it was a an I phenomenon. What most likely happened was the Rs took the women from the mainland who knew how to do the pottery and brought the captive women to the male desolated Britain. Bell and Beaker was not brought with the proto-Celts from the Balkans. So the proto-Celts adopted this pottery from captured women, perhaps like they may have adopted the Indo-European languages from their captured women.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ncient-britons

    The article fails to mention the female lines of Britain survived. The mtDNA that existed prior to the invasion, exist to this very day in Britain. So once again the women survived, the men vanished.
    Yes, Cheddar Man, Britain's oldest complete skeleton, belonged to this group. He lived around 10,000 years ago. But by the time the Beaker folk came to Britain 4,400 years ago, the hunter-gatherers had long since gone.

    In fact, farmers with brown eyes and lighter skin than Cheddar Man's migrated to Britain 6,000 years ago. They were the ones to replace the hunter-gatherers, and were in turn replaced by the Beaker folk's own migration wave, roughly 1,600 years later.

    If you look at the distribution of the J vs R it is only around 1%. The haplogroup is carried mostly of semitic people ancestry including Jewish. It is not widespread in the R rather present in few pockets like Wales, Scotland etc... The R1b seems to be very highly warlike so other than I none of the other Y groups able to sustain during Bronze age.
    haplogroup britain.png

  4. #213
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    Much happened since this topic was stared in February.

    There is much disinformation about Y Haplogroup J2, so let me summarize the recent findings and correct common misunderstandings in 10 points:

    1: J2 is very different to J1 in geographical distribution. J1 could be called Semitic for the majority of its distribution, J2 absolutely not. Let me put it this way for layman:
    R1 makes up the majority of European Y-DNA linage, R2 is almost absent in Europe and can mainly be found in west Asia.

    2: J2 in the neolithic is a negligible Y-DNA linage. Set in relation with the number of Neolithic samples which are majority Y-DNA haplogroup G, J2 gets something like < 10% of the share. Given that G (Anatolia) was at the contact zone to J2 (Caucasus, Iran), this neighborhood is a natural reason for a negligible (< 10%) contribution to the Neolithic.

    3: Chalcolithic and more so Bronze age expansions brought J2 out of its Caucasus/Iran homeland.

    4: Max Planck, Copenhagen geogenetics and Harvard Reich Labs are now convinced that the PIE origin was south of the Caucasus. The Caucasus was home to following Y Haplogroups: G (primary Neolithic), J1, J2 and as recently found out L.
    -J1 expanded pretty early to become the primary Semitic marker, all later expansions of it had negligible impact.
    -G was probably expanding into the Caucasus with the Neolithic from its east Anatolian starting point.
    -L was a apparently latecomer to the Caucasus arriving from Iran and potentially originally from the area around the IVC.
    -R2 should have been present too but its effect was negligible and the South Caucasus presence of R1b is still a possibility, but pending aDNA findings.
    This leaves only J2 left as the main "South Caucasus" expanding Y Haplogroup at the relevant time.

    5: With J2 being in the right region and expanding at the right time, plus a previously negligible geographic footprint, we have a ideal PIE Y-DNA candidate. The expansion would have its first displacement impact on the periphery. Tribes that were at contact zones with people speaking different languages would be the first to expand out of the Caucasus. This periphery tribes would benefit from technological advancements of PIEians and their language could be different than other J2 people (such as the J2 heavy Chechens today). We know since antiquity (Herodotus), that the Caucasus was described as densest region in term of language variety. Hence it could well be that non-IE J2 tribes formed the first wave, such as Hattians/Hurrians or Minoans (unknown origin).

    We have J2 in Minoans (unknown), not in non-IE Hattians/Hurrians or even Etruscans (a common mistake due to J2 mtDNA) up until now.

    6: To this date we have following aDNA on IE-J2, which no other Y-DNA haplogroup can offer in terms of age and relatedness to PIE:
    - IE Mycenaeans
    - IE Hittites (according to the paper)
    - Maikop elite Kurgan burial north of the Caucasus, looking very much like IE
    - BMAC, which is described as Iranic (IE) or influenced, at least in its later phase. This while it is not showing any kind of intrusive steppe auDNA or Y-DNA till its latest phase (Chalcolithic, minor hunter gatherer EHG admixture excluded).

    7: The mentioned Novosvobodnaya Maikop elite Kurgan probably had the most advanced metallurgy of that time, worldwide:
    - The first sword in the world was found there.
    - Earliest Kurgan burials were found in Maikop (according to the paper)
    - Use of wagon/carts
    - Pastorial lifestyle (beside agriculture)
    - Contacts (auDNA) to steppe Botai people which may have brought domesticated horses.

    The technological aspects of these would result in a edge in warfare. We know that there was next to no admixture events between Yamnaya and non-steppe Maikop, otherwise we would observe some ANF auDNA admixture in the steppe people. The lack of this signature means that Maikop was probably militarily strong enough not to be victim of steppe raids. The often stated theory of "Caucasian brides" would have a ANF signature as effect.

    8:



    The worldwide distribution of J2 today covers much of the IE lands with two major anomalies:
    - While in Europe it provides a coverage for Greek, Illyrian, Italic IE people, its presence for Northern origin IE people is too low to have been the main IE Y-DNA linage there. This requires a multi-stage explanation involving R1b and later R1a.
    - Its presence in Semitic speaking Levant and regions related to Phoenician colonies would appear to hint to a non-IE relation. However, this is a false impression because the Levant was heavily influenced by IE people. In north Mesopotamia, the IE Kurds were successful to suppresses Semitic presence.
    In the Levant or Egypt on the other hand they were not successful but left their genetic footprint. We have potential early IE influence by Hyksos, Sea people and others as well as confirmed IE influence by Hittite and Mitanni, up to historical influence like IE Persians on Phoenicians.

    Other minor anomalies like presence in Yemen can be easily explained by historical events, such as the Sassanid expedition to Yemen.

    In exchange for those anomalies we have confirming details, such as:
    - Eastern Steppe presence up to the Altai (e.g IE Saka, Tocharians)
    - Presence in most conservative IE people, Indian Brahmins

    Other IE Y-DNA candidates have problems to such as: R1b lack for Indian coverage. R1a lack of western-Iranic/south-Europe coverage. Hence a multi stage/Y-DNA linage explanation is necessary anyway.


    9: The expansion of CHG/Iran auDNA admixture again fits time and space for IE expansion. This admixture can be directly associated with J2. Of course J1 also had its share in the spread of this admixture as well as minor linage like R2. The relation of R1b or R1a and CHG/Iran admixture is unclear as of now.
    Hence correlation of J2 and CHG/Iran admixture can be helpful in IE context.

    10: The very patriarchal, warlike nature of IE people is reflected in some of today's J2 populations such as Albanians, Iranians and even non-IE but "Caucasus PIE homeland" J2 people such as Chechens.

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    https://www.academia.edu/36689289/In...aus_der_Steppe
    invasion-yamnaya-steppe.jpg

    Interview with Kristian Kristiansen from the Denmark team.

    Normally he is a big supporter of the steppe hypothesis, but he seems to think the Caucasus is likely the place where the linguistic/cultural precursors of the yamnaya lived earlier.
    Avatar: Bilingual Amphora showing Herakles pushing a bull to sacrifice
    (by Andokides Painter)

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    "A finely resolved phylogeny of Y chromosome Hg J illuminates the processes of Phoenician and Greek colonizations in the Mediterranean"

    LINK: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25912-9

    "We observed a stasis in the 15-5 kya time window in the whole tree (J), followed by a sudden increase at 5 kya, in line with most European populations.

    Of the internal clades, only J1-M267 and J2b-M12 displayed the same growth phase at approximately 5 kya. In the context of the recent explosive increase in world population size "

    Thread here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....152#post397152

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