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Thread: Haplogroup J2 and the indo-european languages

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    But people kept dismissing my hypothesis, based on their assumption that "yamna were the first IE speakers, and all later non-R1 indo-europeans are just assimilated".
    There is just no foundation for such claims. I2, J2 and other haplogroups could just as well have been in the early IE genesis.
    The ancient Dna record is way to scarce to jump to any definitive conclusions, as we dont know exactly where IE languages emerged.
    A fuller aDNA record would show us which areas could be the Best contenders for the genesis.
    Right now we only have the aDNA of a very limited number of individuals, in a very limited number of tribes, in an area almost half the size of russia. Not to mention its the most densely populated part of russia.


    Also, I don't know if you saw this new paper on the new "DYSTRUCT" alternative to ADMIXTURE analysis.


    ADMIXTURE estimates ancestry of ancient samples as combinations of modern populations
    whereas this new DYSTRUCT method does the opposite, it estimates ancestry of modern
    populations based on ancient samples.

    The discrepancy in results is quite massive. And what is especially interesting is that with the DYSTRUCT
    method it seems that the Caucuas has the most Yamnaya/Steppe adna of all contemporary populations, further
    strengthening your hypothesis that we should eventually come across some caucaus haplogroups in the indo-european
    expansions.

    Since I am new to this page I am not yet able to post links but if you follow this link you will see the image of the Admixture VS Dystruct results:

    imgur . com/DrgGrVO . png

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  3. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpr View Post
    Also, I don't know if you saw this new paper on the new "DYSTRUCT" alternative to ADMIXTURE analysis.


    ADMIXTURE estimates ancestry of ancient samples as combinations of modern populations
    whereas this new DYSTRUCT method does the opposite, it estimates ancestry of modern
    populations based on ancient samples.

    The discrepancy in results is quite massive. And what is especially interesting is that with the DYSTRUCT
    method it seems that the Caucuas has the most Yamnaya/Steppe adna of all contemporary populations, further
    strengthening your hypothesis that we should eventually come across some caucaus haplogroups in the indo-european
    expansions.

    Since I am new to this page I am not yet able to post links but if you follow this link you will see the image of the Admixture VS Dystruct results:

    imgur . com/DrgGrVO . png
    Interesting, i had not heard of this DYSTRUCT. Ill read it today.
    So far, it definitely sounds as a good approach.
    It doesnt seem like they have included the CHG samples though. It could be interesting to add the Kotias Klde sample and see what happens with the steppe samples
    Last edited by ernekar; 02-17-2018 at 04:27 PM.

  4. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by olive picker View Post
    Is there any reason these clans had this massive expansion? Also how come the clans didn't survive in the south, I'm aware they had their own but it would be funny to see Hoti and Kelmendi survive as far as Thessaly up to the 18th century lol
    Havoc. Romans were not there anymore to benefit them economically nor to control them so they set forth in search for greener postures. Not as isolated as north geographically, in some parts like Laberia they survived to an extent.

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  6. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpr View Post
    Also, I don't know if you saw this new paper on the new "DYSTRUCT" alternative to ADMIXTURE analysis.


    ADMIXTURE estimates ancestry of ancient samples as combinations of modern populations
    whereas this new DYSTRUCT method does the opposite, it estimates ancestry of modern
    populations based on ancient samples.

    The discrepancy in results is quite massive. And what is especially interesting is that with the DYSTRUCT
    method it seems that the Caucuas has the most Yamnaya/Steppe adna of all contemporary populations, further
    strengthening your hypothesis that we should eventually come across some caucaus haplogroups in the indo-european
    expansions.

    Since I am new to this page I am not yet able to post links but if you follow this link you will see the image of the Admixture VS Dystruct results:

    imgur . com/DrgGrVO . png
    Nonsense.

    These results don't match mixture estimates based on formal statistics, so there's obviously something wrong with them.

    Dystruct is an experimental software, and looks to be producing very shaky output at this stage.

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  8. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Nonsense.

    These results don't match mixture estimates based on formal statistics, so there's obviously something wrong with them.

    Dystruct is an experimental software, and looks to be producing very shaky output at this stage.
    Its a new method and the paper came out a couple of days ago.

    It's relevant to the subject at hand and so I mention it.

    If you have conclusive evidence of it being wrong then you can simply prove it.

    Admixture has been used since now because we had scarcity of ancient samples. However with more and more ancient samples being found and extraction being made easier
    this changes the game

    The method of Dystruct, which is to use ancient samples to estimate ancestry of modern populations is actually much more intuitive if you are trying to infer which modern population
    inherited more of an ancient one.

    Nothing about this approaches "nonsense." It is entirely reasonable, relevant, and within the frame of healthy speculation.

    Calling this nonsense alludes to some sort of oversensitivity to the subject at hand.

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  10. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaidas View Post
    No, we were talking about Malesia e Gjakoves, Puke, part of Mirdite to Kruje.
    Ahh. Ok. My mom is from Puke. Haven't tested my uncle yet. When they visit from Sweden I plan to do at least y37.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

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  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    There weren't many plowmen living in Pripet Marshes . Pripet marshes is a wetland with little fertile soil. There isn't much point in plowing the marshes. It's also a forestry region. See the picture below.

    Pripet marshes being a homeland of proto-Slavs is an old hypothesis first presented by Polish botanist Joseph Rostafinski (1850-1928). Back then no significant research was done on the origins of proto-Slavs by archaeologists, linguists, anthropologists, historians.

    There were two popular competing hypotheses from two groups of historians in USSR in the 70-90s . Hypothesis of Valentin Sedov who suggested the homeland of proto-Slavs was in the eastern fringe of the Przeworsk culture (south-eastern Poland and western Ukraine) and that of Mark Schukin. There's an excellent account of early Slavic history by Mark Shchukin called The births of the Slavs. Archaelogist Valentin Sedov published around 400-500 articles and books on the subject.

    Soviet and Russian/Ukrainian scholars didn't place home-land of proto-Slavs in Pripet Marshes, as they found little archaeological and linguistic evidence. It does not make sense to put proto-Slavic home-land in Pripet marshes. Terrain of the region is such that it could support a large population of Slavs that expanded into what's today eastern Germany and the Balkans. If Slavs lived in Pripet Marshes, they could not meet nomadic Avars passing through the steppes and forest-steppe zones of Ukraine. Many modern day scholars in Slavic countries suggest that the home-land of proto-Slavs was between middle Dniepr river and south-eastern Poland.

    ---


    Western Paliessie in south-western Belarus (this is what is referred to as Pripet Marshes in English literature)




    If that is the case then were the East Germanic tribes Slavs in your opinion? To my understanding, East Germanics occupied most of Poland before the Huns pushed them west no? I am not disagreeing with you. Just, trying to make sense of the narrative given what we know of history.
    Known Ancestry: Albanian
    23andme results: 94% Balkan, 0.9% Italian, 0.8% Middle Eastern, 2.2% broadly southern European, 0.3 British & Irish, 0.3% Japanese, 0.5% unassigned
    MyOrigins2.0: 100% Southeast European
    MyAncientOrigins: 62% Farmer, 24% Hunter Gatherer, 14% Metal Age Invader
    MyHeritage: 76% Greek, 16% Balkan, 8% Italian
    WeGene: 99.5% Balkan, 0.5% unassigned
    GenePlaza: 92.7% East Mediterranean, 5.2% Southwestern European, 1.5% Ambiguous
    DNA.LAND: 95% Balkan, 5% Sardinian

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    If that is the case then were the East Germanic tribes Slavs in your opinion? To my understanding, East Germanics occupied most of Poland before the Huns pushed them west no? I am not disagreeing with you. Just, trying to make sense of the narrative given what we know of history.
    I was writing about the eastern part of the Przeworsk culture (south-eastern Poland and western Ukraine) that was not settled by Germanic people at the time. Germanic lived to the west of Vistula river according to Strabo and Tacitus.
    Last edited by Volat; 02-17-2018 at 07:05 PM.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Ahh. Ok. My mom is from Puke. Haven't tested my uncle yet. When they visit from Sweden I plan to do at least y37.
    What village and do you know their clan?

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    @bpr,
    I read the DYSTRUCT paper. It seems very promising.
    I see that a lot of geneticists, including Iosif Lazaridis from the mycenean paper, have re-posted the DYSTRUCT paper on Twitter.
    Last edited by ernekar; 02-18-2018 at 11:46 AM.

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