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Thread: Haplogroup J2 and the indo-european languages

  1. #121
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    Great thread, Ernekar. I appreciate you bringing a fresh and plausible approach regarding PIE ethnogenesis, besides the mainstream theory that I-E men could've only been been R1, I2, and not any J2.

    For example, as you can see below, Generalissimo mentions the two J2a's found in Minoans and Mycenaeans (because in his view the Minoans likely speaking a non I-E language, would disqualify the J2a samples found in Greece as having anything to do with I-E), but completely ignores the two J2b-L283 samples found in Bronze Age Croatia and Bronze Age Armenia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    This doesn't make much sense, because there's no J2 on the Eneolithic/Bronze Age steppe. Not even one.

    And no J2 in Corded Ware or Bell Beaker.

    There's a J2 in a Mycenaean commoner, but there was J2 in Minoans too, so it looks like J2 arrived in Greece in a CHG-rich non-Indo-European population.
    Last edited by Trojet; 02-14-2018 at 12:04 AM. Reason: Grammar

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    Because the steppe admixture is not a nessesity just to be IE speaking. It is just a necessity that a group was a part the early IE sprachbund to get a language which resembles its neighbours' languages. It doesnt mean that all the tribes within the sprachbund interbred with ALL the other tribes in the sprachbund. That means that the "minoans" maybe didnt get to interbreed directly with the ANE bearing R1a's or R1b's tribes, but still got to understand the common language of all the different tribes which had interacted with each other over long time.

    I dont know about the minoans being non-IE.
    But if someone could explain the arguments for me as to why they are not IE, i am of course willing to admit i am wrong.
    After all, some good studies or arguments on the minoan language could have passed me by unnoticed.
    There are many problems with what you're saying here. The first one is that you're talking about an "early IE sprachbund", the problem here is that the pattern we see during the early IE dispersals is one of divergence, not one of convergence (that happened only after the dissolution of the Late PIE dialect continuum). Also, steppe admixture closely tracks the aforementioned dispersals, so while steppe admixture is not an absolute necessity to speak an IE language, it stands to reason that the more we go back in time the more closely intertwined IE-speaking groups and steppe ancestry are (especially considering the nature of PIE society). This is even clearer when we're dealing with prehistorical migrations.

    The Minoans are actually a very good example of that. As Awale already told you, Mycenaean Greek was written down in a syllabic script called Linear B, this script is quite obviously derived from Linear A (the Minoan palatial civilisation's script). The peculiar thing about this script is that it is ill-suited to Greek phonology, and to IE phonology in general (I went into some detail about this here). This is similar to what we see with the cuneiform script, ill-suited to Akkadian phonology because it was initially designed to transcribe Sumerian. It's a bit as if you tried writing English using the Katakana syllabary or the Ethiopic abugida (though the comparison is far from perfect). Furthermore, we know of other languages in the Aegean that weren't IE, such as Lemnian or Eteocretan (in Crete), languages that were spoken until the end of the 1st millennium BCE (this means that pockets of non-IE speakers still existed in the Aegean during Classical Antiquity) the pervasive non-IE substratum in Greek also strongly suggests that non-IE languages were spoken in Greece, the relationship between these languages and the language of the as yet undeciphered Linear A is unclear (IMO we are probably dealing with at least two different language families, neither of which is IE). So it's quite clear that the Minoans did not speak an IE language. The main difference between them and the IE-speaking Mycenaeans is the presence of Europe_LNBA/Steppe_MLBA admixture in the latter, this is very significant.

    Finally, regarding J2 and IE languages, it's important to keep in mind that J2 is around 30,000 years old, so we need to be more precise when it comes to associating this haplogroup with the break up and spread of a language family that roughly dates back to the Chalcolithic period. Most branches of J2a for instance don't seem to have much to do with early IE dispersals, two of the Minoan samples we have were J2a-M319 for example (which admittedly makes this branch of J2a a very poor candidate for the dissemination of early IE speech). J2b1 seems to be involved in the spread of early Semitic speakers. J2b2-L283 on the other hand might well have participated in early IE dispersals, as it was found in a Bronze Age samples from Croatia that had quite a bit of steppe admixture, this lineage's TMRCA is also congruent with the break up of Common IE. Since J2b was found in one of the Iran_N samples, an arrival on the steppe with agriculturalists from the Iranian plateau is possible (probably in an anticlockwise migration around the Caspian sea), alternatively it might have arrived with CHG migrants (while that admixture event is likely to have involved sexual bias, that is to say EHG males and CHG females, some CHG males probably did make their way to the Pontic-Caspian steppe).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 02-14-2018 at 12:21 AM.
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    If PIE is Linked to EHG, then we can only wonder why they patiently waited for 7000 years before beginning to expand, coincidental with the arrival of new groups onto the steppe from the southwest and southeast carrying novel cultural packages spreading via the steppe, and beyond
    Not saying it’s impossible, but the timing of events stands out
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 02-14-2018 at 03:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeathStranding View Post
    Nah, this is false, no proof that CHG in Yamnaya is from "mostly females". To early to say. R1a could have come from further southeast originally.
    You say that it is false and then you say that it is to early to say? Time and more testing will likely prove what I already said is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    There are many problems with what you're saying here. The first one is that you're talking about an "early IE sprachbund", the problem here is that the pattern we see during the early IE dispersals is one of divergence, not one of convergence (that happened only after the dissolution of the Late PIE dialect continuum). Also, steppe admixture closely tracks the aforementioned dispersals, so while steppe admixture is not an absolute necessity to speak an IE language, it stands to reason that the more we go back in time the more closely intertwined IE-speaking groups and steppe ancestry are (especially considering the nature of PIE society). This is even clearer when we're dealing with prehistorical migrations.

    The Minoans are actually a very good example of that. As Awale already told you, Mycenaean Greek was written down in a syllabic script called Linear B, this script is quite obviously derived from Linear A (the Minoan palatial civilisation's script). The peculiar thing about this script is that it is ill-suited to Greek phonology, and to IE phonology in general (I went into some detail about this here). This is similar to what we see with the cuneiform script, ill-suited to Akkadian phonology because it was initially designed to transcribe Sumerian. It's a bit as if you tried writing English using the Katakana syllabary or the Ethiopic abugida (though the comparison is far from perfect). Furthermore, we know of other languages in the Aegean that weren't IE, such as Lemnian or Eteocretan (in Crete), languages that were spoken until the end of the 1st millennium BCE (this means that pockets of non-IE speakers still existed in the Aegean during Classical Antiquity) the pervasive non-IE substratum in Greek also strongly suggests that non-IE languages were spoken in Greece, the relationship between these languages and the language of the as yet undeciphered Linear A is unclear (IMO we are probably dealing with at least two different language families, neither of which is IE). So it's quite clear that the Minoans did not speak an IE language. The main difference between them and the IE-speaking Mycenaeans is the presence of Europe_LNBA/Steppe_MLBA admixture in the latter, this is very significant.

    Finally, regarding J2 and IE languages, it's important to keep in mind that J2 is around 30,000 years old, so we need to be more precise when it comes to associating this haplogroup with the break up and spread of a language family that roughly dates back to the Chalcolithic period. Most branches of J2a for instance don't seem to have much to do with early IE dispersals, two of the Minoan samples we have were J2a-M319 for example (which admittedly makes this branch of J2a a very poor candidate for the dissemination of early IE speech). J2b1 seems to be involved in the spread of early Semitic speakers. J2b2-L283 on the other hand might well have participated in early IE dispersals, as it was found in a Bronze Age samples from Croatia that had quite a bit of steppe admixture, this lineage's TMRCA is also congruent with the break up of Common IE. Since J2b was found in one of the Iran_N samples, an arrival on the steppe with agriculturalists from the Iranian plateau is possible (probably in an anticlockwise migration around the Caspian sea), alternatively it might have arrived with CHG migrants (while that admixture event is likely to have involved sexual bias, that is to say EHG males and CHG females, some CHG males probably did make their way to the Pontic-Caspian steppe).
    About the minoans. I am not going to claim anything further about them. As i really dont know if they were IE or not(im something like 50/50 on the minoan matter). So maybe i was to quick to include them in the beginning of the thread.

    But lets forget the minoans for now, as they are not important for my hypothesis. And instead focus on how come J2b-L283 is present i virtually all IE speakers of Europe, while being too young for a neolithic expansion.

    When i speak of the early IE sprachbund, then i am not speaking of the early dispersals. I am talking about the period when the early dialects developed.
    I think the major difference in the way you and i think, is that you think there was only one original IE language, which later seperated into dialects.
    I dont see it like that. I think there was convergence in the beginning(between EHG and CHG). Then, when several dialects were finally established in the steppe as a mix of EHG and CHG languages, divergence finally started happening after that, and IE spread far and wide.
    But during that initial convergence period, J2b-L283 seems to have penetrated all the tribes which would later form the western branches of IE languages while they were still in their steppe homeland.
    Last edited by ernekar; 02-14-2018 at 08:58 AM.

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  11. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    For example, we find J2b-L283 from Oslo to Madrid, and from Moscow to Athens. Practically everywhere in Europe where IE is spoken.
    I doubt that J2b2 has (or rather had) anything to do with Slavic and Germanic.
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  13. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    I doubt that J2b2 has (or rather had) anything to do with Slavic and Germanic.
    Neither farmers nor romans reached those places. When do you propose it reached those places then?
    Keep in mind that TMRC is a couple thousands years, so its not a recent expansion. Yet its not older than Cooper/bronze age either.

    The IE languages which left the steppe probably already were divided into dialects when they entered Europe. And it seems J2b-L283 were present in all westwards-migrating groups. Or at least the ones that ended up in central europe and the balkans.
    Of course the Nordic neolithics would affect how germanic would turn out later too.
    But that does not mean L283 didnt influence the branch early on in the steppe.

    We even see similarities in germanic and albanian language, which we do not see in other IE branches:
    Like this suffix:
    German: lang-sam
    Danish: lang-som
    Albanian: ngadal-shëm
    English: slow

    Yet R1a, which is a major contributor to germanic languages, is basically absent in Albanians.
    J2b-L283 or z2103 would be much better candidates for similarities like this.

    Baltic and slavic on the other hand, have less chance to have been influenced directly by J2b-l283.
    But then again, they werent on germanic and Balkan lands during the bronze age, where steppe lineages were expanding in different directions, and therefore had a higher chance of surviving somewhere in europe. While the j2b-l283 of balts and slavs had plenty of time to get diluted in the r1a Rich eastern europe, or experience bottlenecks which got rid of their j2b-l283, before they finally expanded later on with only a few lineages lineages remaining.
    Last edited by ernekar; 02-14-2018 at 02:11 PM.

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  15. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    About the minoans. I am not going to claim anything further about them. As i really dont know if they were IE or not(im something like 50/50 on the minoan matter). So maybe i was to quick to include them in the beginning of the thread.

    But lets forget the minoans for now, as they are not important for my hypothesis. And instead focus on how come J2b-L283 is present i virtually all IE speakers of Europe, while being too young for a neolithic expansion.

    When i speak of the early IE sprachbund, then i am not speaking of the early dispersals. I am talking about the period when the early dialects developed. I think the major difference in the way you and i think, is that you think there was only one original IE language, which later seperated into dialects. I dont see it like that. I think there was convergence in the beginning(between EHG and CHG). Then, when several dialects were finally established in the steppe as a mix of EHG and CHG languages, divergence finally started happening after that, and IE spread far and wide. But during that initial convergence period, J2b-L283 seems to have penetrated all the tribes which would later form the western branches of IE languages while they were still in their steppe homeland.
    The fact that the Minoans did not speak an IE language isn't up for debate really. At the very least, all the evidence we have strongly suggests that they were not IE-speaking. They are useful in the sense that they provide a good example of how closely IE speech and steppe admixture are intertwined.

    I have very little doubt that J2b2-L283 was present among the Proto-Indo-Europeans, outside the Balkans however it obviously did not experience the same major founder effects that characterise lineages such as R1b or R1a. So from a more general viewpoint, its expansion seems to be rather restricted so well that it could be described as a minor IE lineage.

    That being said you're quite wrong in asserting that the PIE language is some sort of mixed language that perfectly mirrors the genetic makeup of the PIE speech community. While we can be sure that PIE quickly gave rise to a dialect continuum, we can also be sure that it wasn't a creole. Even though there might have been some influence from the (presumably North Caucasian-like) languages spoken by the CHG ancestors of PIEs, at best this would be similar to Bomhard's theory that PIE was "the result of the imposition of a Eurasiatic language [...] on a population speaking one or more primordial Northwest Caucasian languages", which in my opinion remains unproven (the fact that his theory relies heavily on Nostratic literature is very problematic). The most likely genetic relationship as far as PIE is of concern is with Proto-Uralic, and so if we're going to picture the genesis of PIE we cannot do so without taking the Indo-Uralic links into consideration (regardless of whether they are the result of a genetic relationship or induced by prolonged prehistorical contact). So the theory according to which PIE is the result of convergence between an EHG language and a CHG language is too simplistic, it overlooks the fact that linguistic and genetic phylogenies do not work in the same way.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 02-14-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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  17. #129
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    @agamemnon,

    The good thing about this hypothesis is, that i stay on the safe side. With that i mean, that i dont mention the language trees of those people who merged into early IE(CHG & EHG people).
    Simply because we do not know which language trees existed back then. A lot of them are probably extinct today.

    But early IE people were mixed. Something like 50/50 EHG/CHG.
    Then why do you believe their language to be purely EHG derived?

    And if i am understanding the essence of what you are saying correctly, aren't you saying that early IE were just branches on some sort of indo-uralic language tree?(or at least thats your suspicion?)
    And that there was limited input from the CHG languages?
    Why do you expect that?

    We should also have in mind that EHG and CHG had been isolated from each other during most of the ice age. So they definitively spoke different languages until they met.

    My point is that the both(or more) of those languages formed early IE.
    CHG were not mute people, and there were no centralized powers in the mesolithic/neolithic to force a shared language upon huge areas such as eastern europe and the steppe. So it would be rather random who influenced who when. Things happened at a more local plan. Like settlements influencing their surroundings differently in different places. Especially before horseriding began in the steppe(which was rather late, and by then CHG and EHG would already have been well mixed)
    Last edited by ernekar; 02-14-2018 at 03:12 PM.

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    The problem with the association between language and haplogroups is that we don't know when the language was invented, how they changed, how new speakers were brought to the language and how the haplogroups invaded new distant lands with the language. I can easily say that my own J1-FGC6064 has always been related to Indo-european languages since the beginning, what is a hypothesis as good as any other and also not possible to be falsified or entirely proved just like any other hypotheses.
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