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Thread: Haplogroup J2 and the indo-european languages

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    Haplogroup J2 and the indo-european languages

    I stumbled upon this article on BBC's website:
    http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34832781

    These are some paragraphs from the article:
    "The question of where the Yamnaya come from has been something of a mystery up to now," said co-author Dr Andrea Manica, from the University of Cambridge.

    "We can now answer that as we've found that their genetic make-up is a mix of Eastern European hunter-gatherers and a population from this pocket of Caucasus hunter-gatherers who weathered much of the last Ice Age in apparent isolation."

    The researchers also suggest that the Caucasus hunter-gatherers influenced populations further east, particularly in South Asia.

    They suggest that this strand of ancestry may also have been associated with the spread of Indo-European languages to the region.
    If this is true, that CHG were some of the founders of IE languages, then some subclades of haplogroup J could easily be the original IE speakers(along with other lines like r1b, r1a etc.).
    The fact that the early albanian IE speakers ancient DNA turned out J-m241, early greek IE speakers ancient DNA turned out J-m410, and early armenian speakers ancient DNA turned out j-m241 supports this too. (the three oldest surviving IE languages)

    And if i am not wrong, you have to work very hard to find an indo-european speaking country which doesnt have some J-M410 or J-m241.

    Feel welcomed to post your opinions
    Last edited by ernekar; 02-10-2018 at 11:03 AM.

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    R1b-z2103 could also have accompanied the J2's as part of the initial IE speaking groups, as this subclade of R1b is again most common in modern albanian, armenian, and greeks. (again, three oldest surviving IE branches).

    And about J-M410, i dont know the subclades within it that well. So if anyone could tell me which subclade(s) of J-m410 would fit my hypothetical scenario above the best, it would be great
    Last edited by ernekar; 02-09-2018 at 08:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    If this is true, that CHG were some of the founders of IE languages, then some subclades of haplogroup J could easily be the original IE speakers.
    The fact that the early albanian IE speakers ancient DNA turned out J-m241, early greek IE speakers ancient DNA turned out J-m410, and early armenian speakers ancient DNA turned out j-m241 supports this too. (the three oldest surviving IE languages)
    I think you are getting confused about the meaning of a word fact. Maybe this example will help:

    Bronze age individual from Veliki Vanik, Croatia, belonged to Y-haplogroup J2b2a-M241>L283. Fact

    Bronze age individual from Veliki Vanik, Croatia, was an early albanian IE speaker. Not an actual fact

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    Ernekar, I made a thread about the history of J2, I think you should check it out.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-History-of-J2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    I think you are getting confused about the meaning of a word fact. Maybe this example will help:

    Bronze age individual from Veliki Vanik, Croatia, belonged to Y-haplogroup J2b2a-M241>L283. Fact

    Bronze age individual from Veliki Vanik, Croatia, was an early albanian IE speaker. Not an actual fact
    Of course it is not a fact. Did you think i had spoken personally with the bronze age individual?
    Did any of you guys speak to some yamnayans or EEF lately, since you all seem to attribute IE languages to haplogroups?
    Thats why these things we formulate here are called theories

    And in my opinion the most probable theory about what the bronze age croatian individual spoke, it would be some form of early albanian. I say that because modern albanians live a few hundred kilometers south of the actual kurgan in croatia, and that albanians bear up to 20-30% J-m241. And the frequency of J-m241 falls the further you move away from northern albania(which also happens to have been the most isolated part of albania. It doesn't fall slowly, its falls drastically as soon as you exit albanian-speaking lands.

    I understand that you dont think the valiki vanik person spoke what i think he spoke.
    It is your right to have an opinion. But we must just agree to disagree, and get back on topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Ernekar, I made a thread about the history of J2, I think you should check it out.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-History-of-J2
    Yea i have seen some of the posts in it. The hypothesis i have posted above is basically saying the same things, except for the assimilation thing.
    I dont think there neccessarily need to have been any assimilation. If you look at it a bit more proccessually it can easily be interpreted as small groups of different languages interacting through trade, wars etc. To slowly form a "sprachbund" with similar languages, but genetically different groups within it.
    Those groups could later expand their seperate ways.
    For example if an group/tribe with more r1a moves to central europe/baltics,
    the group/tribe with more j-m241 and z2103 moves to northern balkans(and later maybe armenia),
    the groups with more j-m410 move to southern balkans, crete italy etc.,
    etc. etc.

    Sure, there could have been more haplogroups involved in the genesis and spread of the first IE languages than those i propose. But i dont know that much about their subclades, do i dont mention them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    Of course it is not a fact. Did you think i had spoken personally with the bronze age individual?
    Did any of you guys speak to some yamnayans or EEF lately, since you all seem to attribute IE languages to haplogroups?
    Thats why these things we formulate here are called theories

    And in my opinion the most probable theory about what the bronze age croatian individual spoke, it would be some form of early albanian. I say that because modern albanians live a few hundred kilometers south of the actual kurgan in croatia, and that albanians bear up to 20-30% J-m241. And the frequency of J-m241 falls the further you move away from northern albania(which also happens to have been the most isolated part of albania. It doesn't fall slowly, its falls drastically as soon as you exit albanian-speaking lands.

    I understand that you dont think the valiki vanik person spoke what i think he spoke.
    It is your right to have an opinion. But we must just agree to disagree, and get back on topic.
    I get your logic, but L283 is quite old and isn't exclusively Albanian. Anyway, what I wanted to say is it's not a matter of opinion, and it is pointless to argue what language some ancient individual spoke when there isn't and never will be a way to know for sure.

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    Of course more ancient DNA would be great to have but it seems pretty clear now that the earliest Indo-European speakers were R1a and R1b when it comes to Y-DNA. Their CHG ancestry seems to have come mostly from females.
    Y-DNA haplogroup J2 men originally probably spoke non-Indo-European languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    I get your logic, but L283 is quite old and isn't exclusively Albanian. Anyway, what I wanted to say is it's not a matter of opinion, and it is pointless to argue what language some ancient individual spoke when there isn't and never will be a way to know for sure.
    Yea i know, there are subclades of L283 all over europe, but the percentage is always at a minimum compared to albania.
    This could suggest that the IE groups who went more north had only a few J-L283 individuals but many R1a individuals, while the IE group that went to albania had more j-l283 and less R1a, j2a, etc.
    All the migrating groups could have had different haplogroups.

    And you are right that we can never know what language a skeleton at an archeological site spoke.
    But we wonder and theorize anyways. That is human nature

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Of course more ancient DNA would be great to have but it seems pretty clear now that the earliest Indo-European speakers were R1a and R1b when it comes to Y-DNA. Their CHG ancestry seems to have come mostly from females.
    Y-DNA haplogroup J2 men originally probably spoke non-Indo-European languages.
    But it an oldfashioned way of thinking that everything is caused by assimilation or migrations. Prehistoric groups should not be considered in isolation. They almost always interact and borrow technology, words, instritutions from each other.
    There is no reason to think that the R1a and R1b kept their language unchanged upon getting 50% genes from the CHG, while the langauge of the caucasus people didnt have any impact at all at the genesis of the early form of IE.

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