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Thread: Haplogroup J2 and the indo-european languages

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    Yea i have seen some of the posts in it. The hypothesis i have posted above is basically saying the same things, except for the assimilation thing.
    I dont think there neccessarily need to have been any assimilation. If you look at it a bit more proccessually it can easily be interpreted as small groups of different languages interacting through trade, wars etc. To slowly form a "sprachbund" with similar languages, but genetically different groups within it.
    Those groups could later expand their seperate ways.
    For example if an group/tribe with more r1a moves to central europe/baltics,
    the group/tribe with more j-m241 and z2103 moves to northern balkans(and later maybe armenia),
    the groups with more j-m410 move to southern balkans, crete italy etc.,
    etc. etc.

    Sure, there could have been more haplogroups involved in the genesis and spread of the first IE languages than those i propose. But i dont know that much about their subclades, do i dont mention them.
    They are technically not the same, but it doesn’t matter. What your saying in general makes sense. There is some key things you need to consider, J-M410 (J2a) is highly diversed what might be the case in one subclade will not be the same in another. The same can be applied for J2b, while J2b-M205 has been found in Bronze Age Levant and Egypt and is a clear marker of Semitic speakers, J2b-L283 has an entirely different history, as attested to the ancient samples, J2b-L283 expanded with I.E. speakers, this is even evident with the expansion of L283 lineages matching when I.E. speaking peoples migrated South into the Balkans. Overall J2 is a non I.E. marker, with of course some exceptions.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Of course more ancient DNA would be great to have but it seems pretty clear now that the earliest Indo-European speakers were R1a and R1b when it comes to Y-DNA. Their CHG ancestry seems to have come mostly from females.
    Y-DNA haplogroup J2 men originally probably spoke non-Indo-European languages.
    I think it's safe to include I2a2a-M223>L701>L699 in that group:

    I1738 5473-5326 BC Vovnigi Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1b M223>CTS616>CTS10057>L701>L699

    I3715 5500-4800 BC Volniensky Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1 M223>CTS616>CTS10057>L701

    I3717 5500-4800 BC Dereivka Ukraine_Neolithic I2a2a1b1 M223>CTS616>CTS10057>L701

    I2175 3328-3015 BC Smyadovo Bulgaria_EBA I2a2a1b1 M223>CTS616>CTS10057>L701

    I2165 3020-2895 BC Merichleri Bulgaria_EBA I2a2a1b1b M223>CTS616>CTS10057>L701>L699

    Bul4 3012-2900 BC Mednikarovo Yamnaya_Bulgaria I2a2a1b1b M223>CTS616>CTS10057>L701>L699

    RISE552 2849-2143 BC Ulan Yamnaya_Kalmykia I2a2a1b1b2 M223>CTS616>CTS10057>L701>L699>Y5669
    Last edited by Pribislav; 02-09-2018 at 09:47 PM.

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    And there are a lot of non-IE j2a, jb2, r1a and r1b around the world today. That can be because not all j2 and r1 were at the "frontier", the contact zone where the IE language could have risen for the first time. As a mix of two or more languages, which slowly became several dialects of the same language. While genetically the groups still remained different from each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    They are technically not the same, but it doesn’t matter. What your saying in general makes sense. There is some key things you need to consider, J-M410 (J2a) is highly diversed what might be the case in one subclade will not be the same in another. The same can be applied for J2b, while J2b-M205 has been found in Bronze Age Levant and Egypt and is a clear marker of Semitic speakers, J2b-L283 has an entirely different history, as attested to the ancient samples, J2b-L283 expanded with I.E. speakers, this is even evident with the expansion of L283 lineages matching when I.E. speaking peoples migrated South into the Balkans. Overall J2 is a non I.E. marker, with of course some exceptions.
    My mistake, i wrote m241, i meant L283 for europe.

    About J2a i dont really know its subclades that well, so i just wrote J2a. But i guess i am thinking of the ones which showed up on myceneans and minoans acnient dna. That subclade of j2a alongside R-z2103 could be good contenders for a spread of greek languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ernekar View Post
    My mistake, i wrote m241, i meant L283 for europe.

    About J2a i dont really know its subclades that well, so i just wrote J2a. But i guess i am thinking of the ones which showed up on myceneans and minoans acnient dna. That subclade of j2a alongside R-z2103 could be good contenders for a spread of greek languages.
    No worries man

    Minoans were non Indo-European speakers and no Steppe dna was found in the Minoans, the J2a in the Minoans (M319) came with the Iran Neo/Chalco like ancestry, the J2a found in Mycenaeans is probably from an earlier migration, pre Greek speakers.

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    Maybe it sounds confusing when i speak of small groups affecting each other slowly, rather than the hack'n'slash theories that usually float these genetic forums.
    So i would recommend everyone to read this very basic text: "Peer Polity Interaction" by C. Renfrew
    It is a theoretical text where he explains how groups can affect each other when living in close proximity.
    It is a short, good read. And it should be online somewhere.

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    Starting with a blank slate allows my opinions to need work. Yet the passion of the ICE Age and my recent opportunity to read the article you shared makes me feel that i have a point of entry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    No worries man

    Minoans were non Indo-European speakers and no Steppe dna was found in the Minoans, the J2a in the Minoans (M319) came with the Iran Neo/Chalco like ancestry, the J2a found in Mycenaeans is probably from an earlier migration, pre Greek speakers.
    We dont know if the minoans spoke IE or not. As far as i know their scripts are undeciphered.
    So we dont know what language it is.

    And the IE group which came with J2a didnt need any steppe dna. As i said, in my theory there are many groups(tribes) interacting in the steppe(and caucasus). Not all of them need nessecarrily to have intermixed with ALL of the other groups. But they could still wage war, trade and learn from each other. So some groups which had mixed with r1's would have gotten steppe dna, while the ones that didnt have direct contact with r1's could still speak IE, but didnt have steppe genes, as they had not interbred.

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    Surprise I just looked through the first few pages and it's one I know I want to read. the impact of change when motivated by a commonality that fuses the focus of a gang like mentality is very powerful.
    Thanks for sharing.

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    There is probably many holes in my proposed scenario. But so far, i find most of the theories in here too simple.
    I think the kind of thinking above resembles reality more.
    Last edited by ernekar; 02-09-2018 at 11:03 PM.

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