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Thread: The Hurrians

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    The Hurrians

    A thread for the discussion of the ancient peoples known today as the Hurrians. Although there exists a thread for topics regarding Mesopotamian archaeology and related topics, I felt it more appropriate to create a separate thread for the Hurrians, as it is likely they did not originate in the Mesopotamian region, but rather migrated there from another location, or locations.

    Who Were the Hurrians?
    Archaeology, Volume 61 Number 4, July/August 2008
    by Andrew Lawler

    New discoveries in Syria suggest a little-known people fueled the rise of civilization

    With its vast plaza and impressive stone stairway leading up to a temple complex, Urkesh was designed to last. And for well over a millennium, this city on the dusty plains of what is now northeastern Syria was a spiritual center for a puzzling people called the Hurrians. All but forgotten by history, their origin remains obscure, but excavations led by husband-and-wife UCLA archaeologists Georgio Buccellati and Marilyn Kelly-Buccellati over the past quarter century reveal that the Hurrians were far more than just another wandering tribe in the fractious Middle East. And during last year's season, they found compelling evidence that the Hurrians not only strongly influenced the language, culture, and religion of later peoples, but also may have been present 1,000 years earlier--just as nearby Mesopotamians began to create the first cities.

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    J Man
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    I have a strong feeling that the Hurrians had a lot of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a among them. Hopefully someday ancient DNA will tell us if I am right or wrong.

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    Something posted elsewhere, that is of relevance:

    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Central Asian origin of the group, or rather groups we today refer to as "Hurrians?" I have many times referred to the Hurrians, as at least one possible source for R-L23 in populations like the Armenians, Assyrians, NW Iranians, Lezgins and Alawites.

    "The Urartian Substratum in Armenian"
    John Greppin - 2008

    It appears that the Hurrians, first known in Syria, pressed westward (from Central Asia, as some hint [Burney and Lang 1971]) south of the Caspian Sea in the later third millennium, eventually being stopped by the Hittite nation in central Anatolia.

    ....

    It seems unlikely that these Urartians came south into the sub-Caucasus forming this culture stretching from Yerevan to Van and further. Rather, it seems to be the opposite of that: Lezgian was part of a larger group (coming from Central Asia?) certainly by the fifth millennium into the Caucasus and the sub-Caucasus, a time when the first hints of a permanent culture were forming there.
    ....

    Because it seems clear that there is a relationship between Hurrian, Urartian and languages of Daghestan, we can accept the views of many that the Hurrians and Urartians were affiliated with the Early-Trans-Caucasian culture which was in place as early as 5000 BC. Obviously, the ETC culture was not original in the Caucasus had to come from somewhere. Considering the westward direction the people at Urkesh were going, a Central Asia origin is quite reasonable.

    ....

    It is likely that the people of Urkesh and the later known Hurrians were two separate but related peoples, but of similar (Central Asian?) origin. Indeed, the title of the kings at Urkesh was enda (see Ivanov 2002 and Wegner 2007:232-33), a term not used among the Hurrians of central Anatolia, who, only a few centuries later, used the more common word ewri.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    I have a strong feeling that the Hurrians had a lot of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a among them. Hopefully someday ancient DNA will tell us if I am right or wrong.
    That is certainly a possibility.

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    Paul, if I'm not mistaken your maternal grandfather carried subclade J1-CTS1460, which happens to be one of the best contenders for the Hurrian label since its distribution seems to fit with the distribution of the so-called "Khirbet Kerak ware" while it is also found in the Northeastern parts of the Caucasus (which is significant since we strongly suspect that Hurro-Urartian is genetically related to NE Caucasian languages). Interestingly, there are a few J1-CTS1460 cases in Central Asia.
    As far as R1b-Z2103 goes, I think an arrival with Armenians does make sense, even though it fails to account for its presence in Alawites and Jews (it's hard to picture proto-Armenians integrating the Israelite priestly caste after the Bronze Age Collapse) and so I don't think we should be so quick discard earlier arrivals (with Anatolian speakers for instance).
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    As far as R1b-Z2103 goes, I think an arrival with Armenians does make sense, even though it fails to account for its presence in Alawites and Jews...
    Actually, it is the presence of R-Z2103 in such high frequencies among NW Iranians in and around the Caspian that makes me question the probability of an arrival with the Armenians in the 1st millennium BCE. If R-Z2103 was restricted to Armenians, Jews, Assyrians, and Alawites, I think that would lend more strength to the argument of an Armenian origin. However, as it stands now, one must believe that the high frequencies observed among the various NW Iranian groups represent displaced Armenians or something of that sort. I suppose that is not beyond the realm of possibilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanist View Post
    Actually, it is the presence of R-Z2103 in such high frequencies among NW Iranians in and around the Caspian that makes me question the probability of an arrival with the Armenians in the 1st millennium BCE. If R-Z2103 was restricted to Armenians, Jews, Assyrians, and Alawites, I think that would lend more strength to the argument of an Armenian origin. However, as it stands now, one must believe that the high frequencies observed among the various NW Iranian groups represent displaced Armenians or something of that sort. I suppose that is not out of the realm of possibilities.
    It is a possibility, an unlikely one but still... In the end, this will come down to ancient samples, once more so to speak!
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    with this linguistic map, it seems Hurrian lived in ancient Kurdish lands

    https://books.google.com.au/books?id...netics&f=false


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    I have a strong feeling that the Hurrians had a lot of Y-DNA haplogroup J2a among them. Hopefully someday ancient DNA will tell us if I am right or wrong.
    J2a + J1 (Caucause subsclades) might be widely found in Hurri-urartuans. Probably they had lost thier power as Assyrians, Proto Armenians and Persians (R1b, R1a ) strenghened in the region.

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    I think agree with Humanist when it comes to a possible Central Asian origin for the Hurrians. It would explain the elevated Central Asian_teal admixture amongst Assyrians, Armenians and other related ethnic groups adjacent to the environs of Mesopotamia and Syria.

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