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Thread: 101 Guide to Romani ancestry..

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    I wouldn't even pause to look at Gypsy/Romani if I wasn't suspicious of the trace amounts I get of such as South Asia, Red Sea, Caucasus, etc. I mean where does it come from? Ancestry and FTDNA don't give me a lot of that. But when I look at various GedMatch calculators, there are all sorts of weird components. Anyway they are minute in %, so maybe I'll just consider all those in the 1% range, give or take, as background noise.
    Again, look at the spreadsheets that come with many of these calculators, and you will see that most European populations will have some south and west Asian %.

    Some population averages with west and south Asian %:

    Eurogenes K13:
    Danish: west Asian: 5.69% - south Asian: 1.86%
    East German: west Asian: 6.15% - south Asian: 1.46%
    Irish: west Asian: 6.32% - south Asian: 1.09%
    Romanian: west Asian: 11.28% - south Asian: 0.55%
    West Greenlander: west Asian: 0.80% - south Asian: 2.80%

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    This is only with regards to FTDNA "in common" with though (same problem with the similar feature at 23andme and Myheritage). It is because usually Americans are quite mixed (all over Europe), so it becomes much more difficult to filter DNA matches, in the way that a European from a certain region might be able to do. If you are mixed, English-German-Italian-Russian as an example it will become quite difficult to identify matches from one part of the ancestry, contra another part (unless they are polar opposites of course)..

    But to be honest I have not worked much with Americans, Australians and so on. I tend to ignore them all together (I focus nearly exclusively on matches from Eurasia alone), due to the level of uncertainty that comes with these matches..
    Ah, makes sense.

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     evon (02-14-2018)

  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baltimore1937 View Post
    I wouldn't even pause to look at Gypsy/Romani if I wasn't suspicious of the trace amounts I get of such as South Asia, Red Sea, Caucasus, etc. I mean where does it come from? Ancestry and FTDNA don't give me a lot of that. But when I look at various GedMatch calculators, there are all sorts of weird components. Anyway they are minute in %, so maybe I'll just consider all those in the 1% range, give or take, as background noise.
    They are generally noise, or components present in all sorts of European populations.

    For example, Eurogenes K13 for their North German and North Italian reference populations:

    North_German
    North Atlantic 47.17
    Baltic 27.37
    West Med 10.33
    West Asian 7.12
    East Med 4.24
    Red Sea 0.91
    South Asian 1.46
    East Asian 0.04
    Siberian 0.12
    Amerindian 0.43
    Oceanian 0.28
    NE African 0.37
    SSA 0.17

    North_Italian
    North Atlantic 31.68
    Baltic 11.93
    West Med 25.76
    West Asian 6.90
    East Med 19.58
    Red Sea 2.78
    South Asian 0.56
    East Asian 0.34
    Siberian 0.13
    Amerindian 0.05
    Oceanian 0.21
    NE African 0.04
    SSA 0.03

    So on.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    Again, look at the spreadsheets that come with many of these calculators, and you will see that most European populations will have some south and west Asian %.
    Heh, I started writing mine, got interrupted, removed some detail, posted, and then saw you'd given a more complete yet more succinct answer already.

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     evon (02-14-2018)

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    My mother's 3x paternal grandfather was a Thomas Palmer who was born about 1816 in Bradford on Avon (Wilshire, England)
    In the 1841 census he was described as an agricultural laborer, 1851 a traveler and in 1861 a hawker.

    Of course this doesn't necessarily mean he was Romani but I think it's a possibility however though I can find some East European matches for Mum there aren't exactly very many of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    My mother's 3x paternal grandfather was a Thomas Palmer who was born about 1816 in Bradford on Avon (Wilshire, England)
    In the 1841 census he was described as an agricultural laborer, 1851 a traveler and in 1861 a hawker.

    Of course this doesn't necessarily mean he was Romani but I think it's a possibility however though I can find some East European matches for Mum there aren't exactly very many of them.
    I have noted many instances in Norwegian sources, where people are referred to as Tater (a Norwegian word for Romani, and, or Travelers of all sorts), without this meaning that they were actually part of these groups. As it was often used within these old sources to describe someone who behaved in a certain way (usually in a manner that was deemed stereotypical Tater). So I would be wary of such descriptions...

    However, we also have a very good source by a sociologist (Eilert Sundt), who wrote several books on Romani/Traveler peoples in Norway (my family is among those mentioned by Eliert). So if you find a source like that, where he is mentioned, you might be on to something..

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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    I have noted many instances in Norwegian sources, where people are referred to as Tater (a Norwegian word for Romani, and, or Travelers of all sorts), without this meaning that they were actually part of these groups. As it was often used within these old sources to describe someone who behaved in a certain way (usually in a manner that was deemed stereotypical Tater). So I would be wary of such descriptions...

    However, we also have a very good source by a sociologist (Eilert Sundt), who wrote several books on Romani/Traveler peoples in Norway (my family is among those mentioned by Eliert). So if you find a source like that, where he is mentioned, you might be on to something..
    Don't know I'll have to see what books there are on British Romani, there's a list of British Romani names on the web that has Palmer in it (also Frances which was his wife's maiden name) but it's a bit circular as far as evidence is concerned because it appears to be made up from people who look Romani by the way they are described in census records : )

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Don't know I'll have to see what books there are on British Romani, there's a list of British Romani names on the web that has Palmer in it (also Frances which was his wife's maiden name) but it's a bit circular as far as evidence is concerned because it appears to be made up from people who look Romani by the way they are described in census records : )
    DNA matches should clear that up for you, if you have a 1800's connection with Romani peoples, you will likely match several Romani peoples in UK at 20+cM/750+SNP. Although it is possible that you didn't inherit any DNA from him..

    As an example, I have a Norwegian Romani relative via Myheritage, where we share a common Romani ancestor from the 1800's, and we share 0,4% DNA, with the largest segment at 30cM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evon View Post
    DNA matches should clear that up for you, if you have a 1800's connection with Romani peoples, you will likely match several Romani peoples in UK at 20+cM/750+SNP. Although it is possible that you didn't inherit any DNA from him..

    As an example, I have a Norwegian Romani relative via Myheritage, where we share a common Romani ancestor from the 1800's, and we share 0,4% DNA, with the largest segment at 30cM.
    Mum's pretty solidly Welsh so has umpteen matches with people (mostly American's) with Davies and Morgan etc ancestry, there are a couple from continental Europe but not very many but I've no idea if they may be Romani.

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    Roma ancestry continues to be of interests for geneticists, new studies are on the pipeline based on NGS and full Y genome.
    These were reported at the Human Evolution Conference Cambridge 2017:

    Roma population ancestry from a whole genome sequence perspective: preliminary results.

    Erica Bianco1, Carla Garcia-Fernandez1, Begoña Dobon-Berenguer1, Mihai G. Netea2, Jaume Bertranpetit1, David Comas1

    Roma people are the largest minority in Europe. Previous linguistic and genetic studies showed Roma people originated in the Northwest part of the Indian subcontinent 1.5 kya. Around 1 kya, Roma arrived in Europe and spread in the European continent in different migration waves. Previous studies showed Roma genomes exhibit West Eurasian and South Asia ancestry components, similarly to Indian populations. However, unlikely other Indian populations, Roma undergone recent admixture with European populations, as shown by uniparental studies. These recent admixture events theoretically increased Roma West Eurasian ancestry. Up to date, the distinction between the recent admixture and the West Eurasian ancestry already present in Roma before the arrival in Europe has not been addressed.
    Using whole genome sequencing data of 46 Roma people, we analyzed Roma ancestry patterns and determined the West Eurasian component due to recent admixture with Europeans.
    In a clustering analysis, we found Roma comprise ~75% West Eurasian component and ~25% South Asia component . We approached Roma complex admixture pattern by fitting different demographic scenarios, which included one or more admixture events, to real data. We found that the best fit scenarios are those in which ancestral Roma are the result of the admixture between ancestral West Eurasians and ancestral South Asians followed by the admixture between proto-Roma (recently arrived to Europe) with Europeans and a period of isolation. On average, in all possible scenarios, Roma present ~80-85% of West Eurasian ancestry, divided into the European recent admixture and the West Eurasian ancestry of ancestral Roma. In all cases, the recent European admixture accounted for more than 50% of overall West Eurasian ancestry.
    Our preliminary results confirm Roma have a complex demographic history that cannot be explained just by an admixture event between Indian and European populations. Roma ancestors were already the result of the admixture between West Eurasian and South Asian ancestries. After the out of India, they further admix with Europeans, increasing their West Eurasian ancestry component.

    Complete Y chromosome sequences reveal the founder events in different Roma groups
    Carla García-Fernández, Neus Solé-Morata, Neus Font-Porterias, Erica Bianco, David Comas, Francesc Calafell

    The Roma are suggested to have originated from the North-Western India, and to have diverged into distinct migrant groups after their arrival in Europe 1kya. Little is known about the internal diversity and stratification of these different groups. This is due to that most of the studies on the subject have considered only the country of origin instead of the Roma group affiliation, and to the small number of SNPs and Y-STRs used in most studies, that masks their complex population history.
    Here we generated 40 whole Y chromosome sequences by using whole-genome shotgun paired-end sequencing (Illumina HiSeq X Ten), from five different European Roma populations belonging to the four major migrant groups.
    We found that tree founder haplogroups (H1, I1, J2), defined the 57.5% of the Y Roma lineages, showing the low diversity in the Y chromosomes of Romani, a consequence of their recent origin and spread.
    Interestingly, North-Western Roma showed very similar frequencies of haplogroups in Spain and Lithuania despite their very geographically distant regions. In contrast, Romungro Roma and Vlax Roma, which belong to the same country (Hungary) show different haplogroup compositions. This suggests that structure within Romani could be more related to the migrant affiliation than to the geographical origin.

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