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Thread: Can someone help me get to the bottom of this(South Asian Muslim)?

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    Can someone help me get to the bottom of this(South Asian Muslim)?

    Okay so I'm new here, not sure if this is the right section to post this. But basically, I did a 23andme test because I had a strong suspicion that part of my family(paternal grandfather's side) could have some or mostly non-Indian ancestry. This is based on physical features as many of them are very obviously mixed with something not local to India, let alone to South India(Hyderabad). I've heard rumors about Afghanistan but this is all speculation and no one knows for sure where exactly they came from other than from outside India. They've been in Hyderabad for a very long time.

    My mom's side are converts as far as I know, from Maharashtra. They have some Austro-Asiatic features so it's even possible they might have some sort of tribal/low caste origins, which might complicate results, but this is again just speculation. I have no idea what my paternal grandmother's origins are aside from her also being local to the Hyderabad area.

    But uploading a kit to 23andme was not helpful. 99% South Asian with Y-DNA haplogroup R-M417 and mtDNA haplgroup U7. so that rules out significant Middle Eastern ancestry, but not Pashtun ancestry I assume. How would I know how much is local to this region of South India and how much is from much further north considering the South Asian is not broken down? So I did the Gedmatch calculators but I'm not sure how to interpret them at all because they use reference populations that I have nothing to do with. I also did DNA.land and genecove, here are the results from each. Nothing seems to stand out to me, but I'm hardly an expert and I want to know what you guys think.

    23andme:

    99% broadly South Asian
    .6% Middle Eastern
    .1% Central and South African
    .1% Broadly Sub-Saharan African
    .1% Broadly East Asian and Native American
    .1% unassigned


    DNA.land:
    69% Dravidian
    12% Gujurati
    17% Indus Valley
    2.3% Ambiguous West Asian

    Harappa World:
    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 49.8
    2 Baloch 32.77
    3 Caucasian 7.44
    4 NE-Euro 2.7
    5 SE-Asian 1.49
    6 Papuan 1.32
    7 Mediterranean 1.18
    8 American 0.82
    9 NE-Asian 0.73
    10 Beringian 0.69
    11 SW-Asian 0.46
    12 E-African 0.41
    13 Pygmy 0.09
    14 Siberian 0.08

    Gencove:
    46% Central Indian Subcontinent
    40% South Indian subcontinent
    6% Central Asia
    8% Bengal


    The Middle Eastern and African mixture did not show up anywhere outside 23andme. What is going on?

    Edit: Harappa Oracle results in comments
    Last edited by Censored; 02-12-2018 at 03:26 AM.

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    I'm really not seeing anything either, but others are more knowledgeable than me. It would be helpful to list a kit number and note the segments on which 23andMe is assigning you MENA/ SSA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Okay so I'm new here, not sure if this is the right section to post this. But basically, I did a 23andme test because I had a strong suspicion that part of my family(paternal grandfather's side) could have some or mostly non-Indian ancestry. This is based on physical features as many of them are very obviously mixed with something not local to India, let alone to South India(Hyderabad). I've heard rumors about Afghanistan but this is all speculation and no one knows for sure where exactly they came from other than from outside India. They've been in Hyderabad for a very long time.

    My mom's side are converts as far as I know, from Maharashtra. They have some Austro-Asiatic features so it's even possible they might have some sort of tribal/low caste origins, which might complicate results, but this is again just speculation. I have no idea what my paternal grandmother's origins are aside from her also being local to the Hyderabad area.

    But uploading a kit to 23andme was not helpful. 99% South Asian with Y-DNA haplogroup R-M417 and mtDNA haplgroup U7. so that rules out significant Middle Eastern ancestry, but not Pashtun ancestry I assume. How would I know how much is local to this region of South India and how much is from much further north considering the South Asian is not broken down? So I did the Gedmatch calculators but I'm not sure how to interpret them at all because they use reference populations that I have nothing to do with. I also did DNA.land and genecove, here are the results from each. Nothing seems to stand out to me, but I'm hardly an expert and I want to know what you guys think.

    23andme:

    99% broadly South Asian
    .6% Middle Eastern
    .1% Central and South African
    .1% Broadly Sub-Saharan African
    .1% Broadly East Asian and Native American
    .1% unassigned


    DNA.land:
    69% Dravidian
    12% Gujurati
    17% Indus Valley
    2.3% Ambiguous West Asian

    Harappa World:
    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 49.8
    2 Baloch 32.77
    3 Caucasian 7.44
    4 NE-Euro 2.7
    5 SE-Asian 1.49
    6 Papuan 1.32
    7 Mediterranean 1.18
    8 American 0.82
    9 NE-Asian 0.73
    10 Beringian 0.69
    11 SW-Asian 0.46
    12 E-African 0.41
    13 Pygmy 0.09
    14 Siberian 0.08

    Gencove:
    46% Central Indian Subcontinent
    40% South Indian subcontinent
    6% Central Asia
    8% Bengal


    The Middle Eastern and African mixture did not show up anywhere outside 23andme. What is going on?
    Y-dna R1a - Indo European marker - Bronze Age

    Altogether, therefore, the recently refined Y-chromosome tree strongly suggests that R1a is indeed a highly plausible marker for the long-contested Bronze Age spread of Indo-Aryan speakers into South Asia

    Mtdna U7 - Late Glacial period

    Further Near Eastern clades (W4, HV + 16311!, HV12b, I1, U7a and J1b1b1) spread to South Asia in the Late Glacial period, 16–13 ka (Table 1, Additional file 1: Figure S2), with frequencies of 4.5% in the South Asian 1KGP data.

    Autosomal -

    You cluster with South Indian middle-castes, and if you had any non-Indian DNA it is almost at undetectable levels

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    See this is the thing though, what if someone is a mix of mostly low caste and some Afghan/Central Asian? Wouldn’t that just be indistinguishable from a South Indian middle or high caste?
    Last edited by Censored; 02-11-2018 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Specifics

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    See this is the thing though, what if someone is a mix of mostly low caste and some Afghan/Central Asian? Wouldn’t that just be indistinguishable from a South Indian middle or high caste?
    Welcome to the forum!! You probably do have some mixture actually, but as bmoney mentioned its almost negligible.. Your caucasian is 7.5 and there's slight euro. most hyderabadi muslims tend to have higer caucasian than their hindu counterparts through a mixture of iranian/arab. its not much though but i can tell its there since most indians do not get any african on harappa, and you have decent mediterranean as well. You also get 2.3% west asian on dna.land, which wouldn't be there if you didn't have slight mixture. Also what do your oracles show on harappaworld? It should show certain percentage middle eastern mixture on there. Btw I'm also from around hyderabad, I'm telugu hindu though.

    These are my harappa results

    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 53.7
    2 Baloch 37.19
    3 Caucasian 4.32
    4 NE-Asian 1.52
    5 SE-Asian 1.2
    6 SW-Asian 1.1
    7 Papuan 0.45
    8 American 0.4
    9 Mediterranean 0.12
    Last edited by kush; 02-11-2018 at 11:52 PM.

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    For a South Indian/Hyderabadi, you have some elevated Mediterranean in your Harappaworld, I'd say. So something West Asian is there, albeit in very small proportions since it may have been hundreds of years ago or even longer (ancient). I think I've seen Punjabis on here also score some Med and there was a thread on South Asian Syed results that also had elevated Med in them.

    Also a Hyderabadi, so here's mine (I have fairly recent Hadhrami in there from the ~1700s-1800s era):

    # Population Percent
    1 S-Indian 48.9
    2 Baloch 30.29
    3 Caucasian 6.2
    4 SW-Asian 4.51
    5 NE-Euro 2.67
    6 NE-Asian 1.99
    7 E-African 1.9
    8 Siberian 1.2
    9 American 0.77
    10 Papuan 0.51
    11 SE-Asian 0.45
    12 San 0.35
    13 Beringian 0.26
    Last edited by misanthropy; 02-11-2018 at 11:54 PM. Reason: results

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    See this is the thing though, what if someone is a mix of mostly low caste and some Afghan/Central Asian? Wouldn’t that just be indistinguishable from a South Indian middle or high caste?
    Your SW Asian levels are too low - this component is one of the main Middle-East indicators

    The Mediterranean component might be an indicator of non-Indian ancestry, but Im pretty sure ive seen it in non-Muslim Indians too

    As Kush said could you post your oracles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    See this is the thing though, what if someone is a mix of mostly low caste and some Afghan/Central Asian? Wouldn’t that just be indistinguishable from a South Indian middle or high caste?
    I get what you're asking, but I don't think it's like mixing cake batter. Both unique components should stand out on genetic calculators in their own right. Yeah, just go down the rabbit hole and try as many calculators as you can (check out the Hindi section of the forum) and post results in the threads.

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    For some reason it keeps telling me I can't post links. Not sure why. Even when I try to post the text from the Oracle it doesn't allow me.

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 ap-hyderabad (harappa) 3.06
    2 kerala-christian (harappa) 3.32
    3 rajasthani (harappa) 4.18
    4 up (harappa) 4.42
    5 singapore-indian-b (sgvp) 4.58
    6 tamil (harappa) 4.86
    7 bihari (harappa) 5.09
    8 caribbean-indian (harappa) 5.27
    9 kerala-muslim (harappa) 5.41
    10 andhra-pradesh (harappa) 5.53
    11 ap-brahmin (xing) 5.58
    12 maharashtrian (harappa) 5.61
    13 tharu (metspalu) 5.75
    14 tn-brahmin (xing) 5.91
    15 iyer-brahmin (harappa) 5.93
    16 up-muslim (metspalu) 5.94
    17 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 5.99
    18 karnataka (harappa) 6.02
    19 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 6.1
    20 iyengar-brahmin (harappa) 6.24

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 91.3% karnataka (harappa) + 8.7% chechen (yunusbayev) 1.09
    2 90.6% karnataka (harappa) + 9.4% stalskoe (xing) 1.11
    3 91.6% karnataka (harappa) + 8.4% balkar (yunusbayev) 1.22
    4 91% karnataka (harappa) + 9% kumyk (yunusbayev) 1.23
    5 91.7% karnataka (harappa) + 8.3% adygei (hgdp) 1.26
    6 91% karnataka (harappa) + 9% lezgin (behar) 1.27
    7 90.9% karnataka (harappa) + 9.1% urkarah (xing) 1.28
    8 91.7% karnataka (harappa) + 8.3% north-ossetian (yunusbayev) 1.32
    9 85.5% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 14.5% stalskoe (xing) 1.56
    10 85.9% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 14.1% urkarah (xing) 1.71
    11 91.1% karnataka (harappa) + 8.9% turk-istanbul (hodoglugil) 1.75
    12 86.1% tamil-vellalar (harappa) + 13.9% lezgin (behar) 1.78
    13 62% singapore-indian-a (sgvp) + 38% kashmiri (harappa) 1.78
    14 92.5% tharu (metspalu) + 7.5% georgian (harappa) 1.8
    15 91% karnataka (harappa) + 9% nogai (yunusbayev) 1.82
    16 61.3% piramalai-kallar (metspalu) + 38.7% kashmiri (harappa) 1.83
    17 92.3% tharu (metspalu) + 7.7% armenian (yunusbayev) 1.84
    18 91.9% andhra-pradesh (harappa) + 8.1% lezgin (behar) 1.85
    19 91.3% karnataka (harappa) + 8.7% turk (behar) 1.87
    20 90.8% karnataka (harappa) + 9.2% azeri (harappa) 1.8

    Edit: Okay it finally worked somehow!
    Last edited by Censored; 02-12-2018 at 02:41 AM. Reason: fixed

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    looking at your results Turkic admixture from Central Asia is more likely than MENA mix

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