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Thread: Would Pakistani Punjabis, as a whole, be genetically different from Indian Punjabis?

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    Would Pakistani Punjabis, as a whole, be genetically different from Indian Punjabis?

    I am not an expert on this stuff, but as I understand it, there is a gradient running from northwest to southeast on the Indian subcontinent and the people are on a cline from more Caucasoid to more aboriginal.

    So, with Punjab being such a large area and the Pakistani Punjab being situated west of the Indian Punjab, there should be some natural differences, correct? On top of that, Muslim Punjabis have been much more heavily influenced by migrations from Pashtun and Baluch areas as these overwhelmingly Muslim groups melted into the local Muslim population rather than the Hindu/Sikh population of Punjab.

    Now obviously, Jatts and other cross-border ethnic groups with the same ancestry are going to be similar but on the whole, is there reason to believe that Pakistani Punjabis would be more heavily western/northern leaning than their Indian counterparts?

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    So far we have found no difference in genetics of West and East Punjabis. If you are adding the possibility of Muslim punjabis mixing with pashtuns and Baluchs, you have to add the posibility of them mixing with Kami or musselis like population also.

    On harappa Punjabi Sikh jatts seem to be more west shifted than their muslim counterparts. Unless someone has obvious recent baluch or Pashtun mix as in case of Khanabadoshi, your average punjabi is same both side. Although keep in mind PJL samples used in genetic calculators are from Lahore, and are even South Indian shifted than Gujaratis.
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    Do you think Punjabis Sikhs ought to stand out autosomally?

    I had always thought that pre 1500s, Sikhs were drawn from both Muslim and Hindu communities, so presumably they wouldn't be genetically distinct? Unless some of that exogamy in Muslim communities happened post the foundation of Sikhism. I imagine, a similar thing could have happened in medieval Muslim Punjabis communities too before converting to Sikhism?

    Partition has had a big impact on population movement too, possibly blurring any subtle differences?

    Interesting topic

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    Well I think most Muslims in the subcontinent aren't pure Muslim, as in they were converted long ago from Hinduism. And with Punjab being a central area of conversion to Islam I am guessing that most Punjabis are the same, maybe some minor differences. This is a very interesting topic like Reza said. Being Punjabi its always something I have thought of.

    When I was younger one of my best friends was a Sikh and when I would go to his house his parents looked the same as mine and spoke the same language so I've always thought we were the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raza94 View Post
    Well I think most Muslims in the subcontinent aren't pure Muslim, as in they were converted long ago from Hinduism. And with Punjab being a central area of conversion to Islam I am guessing that most Punjabis are the same, maybe some minor differences. This is a very interesting topic like Reza said. Being Punjabi its always something I have thought of.

    When I was younger one of my best friends was a Sikh and when I would go to his house his parents looked the same as mine and spoke the same language so I've always thought we were the same.
    For some reason a lot of Indian Punjabis just look like any other Indian whereas I can usually pick out Pakistanis regardless of ethnicity. Not sure why this is which is why I ask.

    With Pakistani Punjab compared to India there was a lot more migration due to proximity to Afghan regions but also way more conversion so it evens out I guess. At least that’s my theory. But there’d still probably be a difference to the Hindu/Sikh population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    For some reason a lot of Indian Punjabis just look like any other Indian whereas I can usually pick out Pakistanis regardless of ethnicity. Not sure why this is which is why I ask.

    With Pakistani Punjab compared to India there was a lot more migration due to proximity to Afghan regions but also way more conversion so it evens out I guess. At least that’s my theory. But there’d still probably be a difference to the Hindu/Sikh population.
    There have been huge changes in religion in past 400-500 years in Punjab region. As we talked about punjabi tribes in other thread, majority of these tribes were shudra or outside of caste system, hence the rituals were more pagan than mainstream religions. I follow this youtube channel called Punjabi lehar run by a muslim jatt from Pakistan Punjab, who interviews elders who saw the partition. The elders who belong to rajput or jatt biradaris mention when they converted to islam, which is usually within past 400-500 years. Did they mix with other biradaris? in Cities yes, because a pakistani punjabi user here stated marriages between different biradaris is more common in cities in comparison to villages.

    I am a punjabi born and brought up in India, I live in Canada now and meet Pakistani punjabis all the time. I have never been able to tell the difference tbh until they mention their name, so I understand what Raza94 means. Similarly there is a huge diversity in the region so it'd be weird to say that who looks punjabi or who is not.

    One thing we have to keep in mind that religious influence on attire can definitly make one look different, as in my case I wear "karha". So its is easy to tell i am sikh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    There have been huge changes in religion in past 400-500 years in Punjab region. As we talked about punjabi tribes in other thread, majority of these tribes were shudra or outside of caste system, hence the rituals were more pagan than mainstream religions. I follow this youtube channel called Punjabi lehar run by a muslim jatt from Pakistan Punjab, who interviews elders who saw the partition. The elders who belong to rajput or jatt biradaris mention when they converted to islam, which is usually within past 400-500 years. Did they mix with other biradaris? in Cities yes, because a pakistani punjabi user here stated marriages between different biradaris is more common in cities in comparison to villages.

    I am a punjabi born and brought up in India, I live in Canada now and meet Pakistani punjabis all the time. I have never been able to tell the difference tbh until they mention their name, so I understand what Raza94 means. Similarly there is a huge diversity in the region so it'd be weird to say that who looks punjabi or who is not.

    One thing we have to keep in mind that religious influence on attire can definitly make one look different, as in my case I wear "karha". So its is easy to tell i am sikh.
    Honestly unless they're wearing the karha or a turban I cannot tell the difference until they say their name, and even then some names are common on both sides. For example I know a Sikh with the name Sarfraz and a Hindu with the name Sahil. Not to mention amongst Jatts there are common last names like Bajwa,Cheema and even some Sandhu and Sidhu, which just leads me to believe that these last names are not religious at all but are Jatt names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raza94 View Post
    Honestly unless they're wearing the karha or a turban I cannot tell the difference until they say their name, and even then some names are common on both sides. For example I know a Sikh with the name Sarfraz and a Hindu with the name Sahil. Not to mention amongst Jatts there are common last names like Bajwa,Cheema and even some Sandhu and Sidhu, which just leads me to believe that these last names are not religious at all but are Jatt names.
    I agree, I often get mistaken for Sikh, not even just Punjabi but straight up Sikh Lol
    Some say I have a Sikh face which I’ve never really understood because surely Punjabis look similar on both sides unless like you said there’s a distinct difference like a turban or kara to identify them

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    most high cast punjabi tribes are pretty similar , the reason is that they fall outside of varna/caste system

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    There have been huge changes in religion in past 400-500 years in Punjab region. As we talked about punjabi tribes in other thread, majority of these tribes were shudra or outside of caste system, hence the rituals were more pagan than mainstream religions. I follow this youtube channel called Punjabi lehar run by a muslim jatt from Pakistan Punjab, who interviews elders who saw the partition. The elders who belong to rajput or jatt biradaris mention when they converted to islam, which is usually within past 400-500 years. Did they mix with other biradaris? in Cities yes, because a pakistani punjabi user here stated marriages between different biradaris is more common in cities in comparison to villages.

    I am a punjabi born and brought up in India, I live in Canada now and meet Pakistani punjabis all the time. I have never been able to tell the difference tbh until they mention their name, so I understand what Raza94 means. Similarly there is a huge diversity in the region so it'd be weird to say that who looks punjabi or who is not.

    One thing we have to keep in mind that religious influence on attire can definitly make one look different, as in my case I wear "karha". So its is easy to tell i am sikh.
    Hmm, I haven't seen that many Sikhs so I can't say for sure. However look at Bobby Jindal and Kunal Nayyar, both Punjabi Hindus. They don't look Pakistani at all.

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