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Thread: The peopling of the last Green Sahara revealed by high-coverage resequencing of trans

  1. #11
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    Another absence is J1, quite present in North Africa but not included in the article, so J1 arrived only in the North after the aridification of the Sahara.
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    What happened to the Southern Egyptians samples ? These samples are not new. What can we really learn about the Ancient Inhabitants and migrations in the Eastern Sahara without any samples from Sudan. The A and M78 lineages are underestimated due to the lack of Sudanese lineages IMO.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    What happened to the Southern Egyptians samples ? These samples are not new. What can we really learn about the Ancient Inhabitants and migrations in the Eastern Sahara without any samples from Sudan. The A and M78 lineages are underestimated due to the lack of Sudanese lineages IMO.
    Southern Egyptians? You mean how the E-M78 is listed as "data not available"? Wonder what happened there. Looks like the same samples from Trombetta et al E-M35 study so should all be E-V12(xV32), probably diverse types.

    Nothing from Sudan, nothing from Mali either, but it's a lot better than the usual nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Nilo-Saharans like the Masalit and Fur who are predominantly V32 (71% and 68% respectively) yet have negligible amount of Afro-Asiatic maternal lineages or autosomal ancestry kinda reminds me of the R-V88 Chadics except these Cushitic men adopted the tongue of the females they mated with
    "Interestingly, all the central sahelian E-V32 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32/V6873, which is almost exclusively found among the Nilo-Saharans "? What is this clade?

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaar View Post
    "Interestingly, all the central sahelian E-V32 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32/V6873, which is almost exclusively found among the Nilo-Saharans "? What is this clade?
    I'm not sure but it is apparently 5k years old according to their estimates.

    Target: Mother_scaled
    Distance: 5.4903% / 0.05490334
    50.8 Dinka
    35.8 Levant_Natufian
    9.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    4.0 ETH_4500BP
    0.4 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 5.1638% / 0.05163817
    44.8 Dinka
    36.0 Levant_Natufian
    11.6 ETH_4500BP
    6.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    1.4 MAR_EN

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 5.5604% / 0.05560439
    48.0 Dinka
    42.0 Levant_Natufian
    8.6 ETH_4500BP
    1.0 MAR_EN
    0.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf


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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Could these Nilo-Saharans be descendants of Cushtic speakers who elite dominated certain Nilo-Saharan groups? This would make sense considering some of these Nilotic languages found in Sudan contain Cushtic loan words from perhaps groups like the Beja??
    That's a plausible scenario but hard to decipher based on linguistics. There's also quite a notable amount of Nilo-Saharan loanwords found in Beja and other adjacent Afroasiatic languages.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    ...In terms of the A3-M13, how many Sardinians actually descend from this branch? Is it the same one that has popped up in Britain and the Middle East?

    According to Yfull's estimates, the Sardinians, some Saudis and a Scot from the same A-M13 British-line are from a branch that formed 10,300ybp:
     

    On the Ytree, the other branch above splits from the same period, it's mostly upper-nilotic (S.Sudan/Uganda) save one Saudi. Overall it's nice to see the paper's 10.7kya formation date for A3-M13 actually matches up quite nicely with Yfull's 10.6kya estimate




    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    The more famous British one is A1a. A-M13 is pretty widespread but rare, it's only 0.6% in Sardinia.
    Interesting stat, where did you get that figure? I found them to be a little higher from these older papers: (1/77 = 1.3%,[Semino O, 2000] 1/22 = 4.5%[Shen P, 2000])





    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    What can we really learn about the Ancient Inhabitants and migrations in the Eastern Sahara without any samples from Sudan. The A and M78 lineages are underestimated due to the lack of Sudanese lineages IMO.
    Couldn't agree more! Given the significance of waterways during the aridification of the Sahara, it would've been pertinent to also obtain samples from the upper and middle Nile -- its a pretty big gap in the puzzle
    .... .. I have spoken."

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiloSaharan View Post
    That's a plausible scenario but hard to decipher based on linguistics. There's also quite a notable amount of Nilo-Saharan loanwords found in Beja and other adjacent Afroasiatic languages.
    This is what I could find on the topic
    Attachment 21492
    Attachment 21493

    There are still holes in my theory like the fact that these Sahelians carry a specific V32 subclade not found among us modern Cushtic speakers.For all we know they could have just absorbed this lineage because of proximity and for whatever reason this lineage became quite successful among certain ethnic groups in the Sudan/Shaad region.

    Target: Mother_scaled
    Distance: 5.4903% / 0.05490334
    50.8 Dinka
    35.8 Levant_Natufian
    9.0 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    4.0 ETH_4500BP
    0.4 MAR_Taforalt

    Target: Drobbah_scaled
    Distance: 5.1638% / 0.05163817
    44.8 Dinka
    36.0 Levant_Natufian
    11.6 ETH_4500BP
    6.2 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
    1.4 MAR_EN

    Target: Father_scaled
    Distance: 5.5604% / 0.05560439
    48.0 Dinka
    42.0 Levant_Natufian
    8.6 ETH_4500BP
    1.0 MAR_EN
    0.4 Yemenite_Al_Jawf


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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaar View Post
    "Interestingly, all the central sahelian E-V32 chromosomes belong to the internal clade E-V32/V6873, which is almost exclusively found among the Nilo-Saharans "? What is this clade?
    The 3 Horn of Africa samples are 1 Ethiopian Jew 1 Amhara and 1 Eritrean Tigrai. You can see in the Figure 2, 2 of them are close to a Near East (Iran) V32, <4.6kya. So it is reasonable to assume that they belong to Y28701 (assuming the Iranian belongs to Y28701, because the other Horn of Africa sample is closer to Kenyan V32 (1 Borana 1 Luhya 1 Maasai), which is likely to be Z813). The TMRCA between the Chadians and Ethiopian/Near east is 6 +-0.7kya and given Y28701 formed 5.3kya ago, I would have to say they belong to the same branch, it's within the TMRCA calucation error. There are Chadians with DYS438=12 (2/2, 316434 and 316442) and so I would say they are Y28701*.
    Last edited by Almagest; 02-15-2018 at 03:46 PM.

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad View Post
    They forgot about E-L19, E-M33 and also A1a, how foolish...

    As for R-V88, I've already said that it most likely entered from Italy and not Iberia. The haplogroup is well established in the eastern portion of North Africa and Central Africa, but it is almost completely lacking in the west. Add this to the fact that Sardinia has basal sub-clades and you get the idea. Natufian-like rich, we can't know, but it is likely that their original autosomal composition (WHG) was diluted as they were moving toward lake Chad to the extent that there is almost no west eurasian autosomal signal in the populations currently heavy in R-V88. It is possible that at one point V88 predominated along the libyan coast where it would have been mixing with ''natufian-like'' North Africans.
    I guess you're suggesting the R-V88 guys moved from modern day "Sicily" to modern day "Tunisia" around 5000 BC?
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
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    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    This is what I could find on the topic
    Attachment 21492
    Attachment 21493

    There are still holes in my theory like the fact that these Sahelians carry a specific V32 subclade not found among us modern Cushtic speakers.For all we know they could have just absorbed this lineage because of proximity and for whatever reason this lineage became quite successful among certain ethnic groups in the Sudan/Shaad region.
    Here's some quotes I had in mind...

    This speaks more to typological features than actual loanwords being due possibly just by proximity of the two language groups
     



    I think you'd find this pertinent to your theory...

    It explains the reason of so many Nilosaharan loanwords in Beja to be the result of North-Cushitic groups gradually assimilating Nilotics pops in the southern Red Sea hills region; all within the last 5k years:
     


    Interestingly, elders in my maternal Kir-Abbain tribe (Kakwa) have mentioned coming from the Red Sea region, somewhere around the Ethiopia-Sudan border or at Kapoeta -- perhaps it's an oral history of their string of migrations. [mentioned earlier]
    .... .. I have spoken."

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