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Thread: How have Finnish people changed over the millennia?

  1. #11
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    No I'm quite happy to talk about it, I would just like to talk about in the appropriate thread or over messaging.

    There's no need to get so irritated over a sentence that was a side thought to the main premise of the post.

  2. #12
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    If I say my car runs on water there's no need to interrupt our conversation about spark plugs. Oh well, you'll figure it out eventually.

    Razib Khan has written quite a bit about this topic, see for instance The Finnic peoples emerged in the Baltic after the Bronze Age.

    Homunculus gave a good summary on the last page. Finns are much like other Northern Europeans (plenty of Steppe ancestry) but they do have a bit of something Siberian, when and where it arrived is still debatable. We have ancient DNA from Finland to speak of, we don't know for sure what the first post-glacial inhabitants of Finland were like, but they probably were like other Northeast European hunter-gatherers, in the WHG-SHG-EHG group. And like other European hunter-gatherers, they were probably mostly replaced by multiple waves of incomers since then.

    From linguistic evidence it's thought that ancestors of Saami originally inhabited southern Finland, in the Iron Age they moved northward and assimilated people speaking unknown Palaeo-Laplandic languages, while those who remained in the south were assimilated by Finnic speakers. However the ancestral Saami speakers themselves probably only arrived in the Bronze Age, in fact they may well have replaced Indo-European speakers in the south.

    In terms of Y haplogroups the main ones are N1c1a1a1a-L1026 and I1-M253, which are relatively young (around 4500-5500 years old) and widely distributed. N-L1026 has old branches in Mongolia, in the Russian Far East, even on the Bering Strait, as well as in Eastern Europe. The branches typical of Finland, N-VL29 and N-Z1934, are younger, and also have sister branches in the Volga-Ural region of Russia. Major Finnish subclades are frequently about 2000 years old, so plausibly connected to Iron Age population expansion. Also, N1c is so far absent from ancient DNA from the Baltic Sea region. Hence it is generally thought that N1c, or at least the vast majority of it, has arrived in Finland not before the Bronze Age. (Other people who know more about this can correct me if I'm wrong.)

    Some Finnish I1 is shared with Swedes, but the most important subclade, I1-L287, seems specific to Finland and again is estimated to date to the Iron Age, showing a major population expansion at that time.

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  4. #13
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    This recent paper by Översti et al is relevant for this discussion: ”Identification and analysis of mtDNA genomes attributed to Finns reveal long-stagnant demographic trends obscured in the total diversity” (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-05673-7).

    According to this paper, the oldest pre-Iron Age lineages and therefore autosomally probably the most relevant mtDNAs of modern Finns are the following: U5b1b2 (+U5b1b2a), H13a1a1d1, K1c1c, H1f1, W1a, W1b (+W1b1), V5, V1a1a (+V1a1a1), V8, H1a2, H3h1, U5b1b1a1a (+U5b1b1a1a1), U5a2a1a, H1n4.
    (https://www.nature.com/articles/s415...73-7/figures/1)

    The oldest lineage, U5b1b2, has not yet been detected in any ancient samples, nor other important haplotypes such as V8, W1a and W1b.
    Some of the above haplotypes seem to be Yamnaya-related such as H13a1a1 and U5a2a1a, and V5 has been detected in the Cucuteni Tripolye Culture.
    K1c1, V1a, H1n and H3h are mediated by either European hunter-gatherer or Neolithic and later on by Bronze Age cultures.
    One haplotype, H1f1, has been found in the Scandinavian Pitted Ware.
    U5b1b1a is probably of Saami origin.

    Many haplotypes are shared with other Uralic speaking populations.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 02-13-2018 at 07:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post

    In terms of Y haplogroups the main ones are N1c1a1a1a-L1026 and I1-M253, which are relatively young (around 4500-5500 years old) and widely distributed. N-L1026 has old branches in Mongolia, in the Russian Far East, even on the Bering Strait, as well as in Eastern Europe. The branches typical of Finland, N-VL29 and N-Z1934, are younger, and also have sister branches in the Volga-Ural region of Russia. Major Finnish subclades are frequently about 2000 years old, so plausibly connected to Iron Age population expansion. Also, N1c is so far absent from ancient DNA from the Baltic Sea region. Hence it is generally thought that N1c, or at least the vast majority of it, has arrived in Finland not before the Bronze Age. (Other people who know more about this can correct me if I'm wrong.)
    .
    In that case, sargat scythian N1C might bring ural language to finland.


    Sargat people were not caucasoid, not mongolid, but intermediate between caucasoid and mongolid (or plesiomorphic )like okunevo people and modern Ural people.

    The third cluster includes Early Iron Agegroups of Western Siberia, Neolithic groups of the Altai,and Okunev people of Southern Siberia. Populationsmaking up the third cluster are quite special rather than intermediate. It is to this cluster that people buried on Bolshoy Oleniy Island are the closest.
    --
    the third cluster presents a difficult problem. Of course, marked similarities between groups widely separated in space such as Okunev, Sargat,Ust-Isha and Itkul, and Bolshoy Oleniy Island should not be taken to imply direct migrations from southwesternSiberia to circumpolar Eastern Europe or vice versa.
    --
    In our view, the results of the multivariate comparison, paradoxical as they appear, are not incidental. Rather than indicating direct affinities, membership of the third population cluster may reflect the retention of plesiomorphic cranial traits that were characteristic of an early stage of population differentiation in Eurasia. At least two supposedly plesiomorphic trait combinations peculiar to certain ancient populations of Siberia have been described. One characterizes the Okunev people of Southern Siberia
    This kind of intermediate (or plesiomorphic)and modern ural people seem to be connected to EHG group and neolithic western siberian as anthropologist Bunak claimed. As far as I know, top russian anthropologists were hot debating about whether EHG were mixed or intermediate between caucasoid and mongloid.





    Moreover 2017 anthro reserch also agreed with that:

    Unlike the Ukrainian Mesolithic, the Yuzhny Oleni Ostrov Mesolithic displays a high morphological affinity with several groups from Northern Eurasia of both European and Asian origin. A possibility of a common substrate for the Yuzhny Oleni Ostrov Mesolithic and Siberian Neolithic groups is reviewed. The Siberian Neolithic is shown to have morphological connection with both modern Siberian groups and the Native North Americans.

    ==> Another thing is ancient xioungnu and mongol turk is anthroplogically connected with mongol bronze chandman, who ties with UP people and black foot Indian by Dr C Roring Brace. The turk cannnot be made by the steppe bronze people. Their skull description is similar to okunevo people. So there is another possibility that all intermediate people seems like speaking Ural or altai language.
    Last edited by johen; 02-13-2018 at 10:30 PM.

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    IMO Asko Parpola’s linguistic and archeological model for the spread of Uralic is the most accurate and extensive we have right now http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266_parpola.pdf

    Pertaining to Finland it means Finnic languages (and likely N1c) arrived with Netted Ware and AkozinoMalar axes likely replacing a Northern IE people in Finland (Late Bronze or early Iron Age). Unfortunately we have no aDNA however there is and Iron Age Estonian paper coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    Pertaining to Finland it means Finnic languages (and likely N1c) arrived with Netted Ware and AkozinoMalar axes likely replacing a Northern IE people in Finland (Late Bronze or early Iron Age).
    So you suggest that the Leväluhta people living in Ostrobothnia close to the Finnish west coast and Sweden were Nothern IE speakers?

    Finnish speakers probably assimilated a lot of people of this type when they arrived.

    According to yfull, TMRCA of N-VL29 is 3700 and of N-Z1925 3000 years. Therefore, N-VL29 and its older form N-CTS10760 (TMRCA 4000 years) could be linked with the Finnish Netted ware (c. 1500 BC-0), in particular with Sarsa Tomitsa ceramics (http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/arla/keram/st.html). N-Z1925 seems to have arrived in the area somewhat later, c. 1000 BC.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 02-14-2018 at 06:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    So you suggest that the Leväluhta people living in Ostrobothnia close to the Finnish west coast and Sweden were Nothern IE speakers?

    Finnish speakers probably assimilated a lot of people of this type when they arrived.

    According to yfull, TMRCA of N-VL29 is 3700 and of N-Z1925 3000 years. Therefore, N-VL29 and its older form N-CTS10760 (TMRCA 4000 years) could be linked with the Finnish Netted ware (c. 1500 BC-0), in particular with Sarsa Tomitsa ceramics (http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/arla/keram/st.html). N-Z1925 seems to have arrived in the area somewhat later, c. 1000 BC.
    Well if I recall correctly one of the samples from that upcoming study was Germanic like so there definatly was some IE like groups in Finland at the time likely more so in the south.

    I think the early Netted ware in Finland might have been Proto Saami speakers while Balto Finnic speakers came with Akozino-Malar axes. If you look at yfull the oldest N1c branch in Finland is l1022 with a tmrca of 1000BC. There are multiple L550+ Swedish branches with a tmrca of 900BC which would support the Akozino-Malar theory which appear in Eastern Sweden.

    I agree with you however on the fact that there were other likely Siberian peoples in Finland prior to the Saami as well. Like you said these early Saami would have assimilated and mixed with these Siberian people and then Balto-Finns would have done the same later with the Saami of Southern Finland.

  11. #18
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    Bronze Age innovations arrived in Finland from the east and west, and linguistically meant the arrival of Uralic and Germanic languages in the area. There was a lot of mixing and interaction between the two. The inland inhabitants spoke Saami languages/unknown languages until a very late date.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    In that case, sargat scythian N1C might bring ural language to finland.


    Sargat people were not caucasoid, not mongolid, but intermediate between caucasoid and mongolid (or plesiomorphic )like okunevo people and modern Ural people.

    There is another strong opinion in the other forum that sargat culture is connected to Magyar.
    It makes a sense that N1c was found and king bella has R1a

    R1a king's skull




    buckle Pogorelka-2 kurgan (Sargat culture):




    Same style jewelries (different function) from an early 10th century Magyar grave from Dabas, Hungary:




    ==> Looks like ananjino scythian was related to okunevo:



    Okunevo:

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikkaK View Post
    IMO Asko Parpola’s linguistic and archeological model for the spread of Uralic is the most accurate and extensive we have right now http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust266/sust266_parpola.pdf

    Pertaining to Finland it means Finnic languages (and likely N1c) arrived with Netted Ware and AkozinoMalar axes likely replacing a Northern IE people in Finland (Late Bronze or early Iron Age). Unfortunately we have no aDNA however there is and Iron Age Estonian paper coming.
    Author tried to connect sami, netted ware culture and seima turbino each other, but I don’t understand.
    He thought that seima turbino originated in abashevo culture, which is a problem to me. And the netted ware culture had orgin in upper volga area.
    I don’t know the orgin of the culture, but net impression culture of lake baikal. And I know the seima turbino material is connected to lake baikal.

    See lake baikal netted ware samples, which look similar to karelian netted one:

    Lake baikal:
    http://www.academia.edu/12126223/Cul..._Pottery_Study

    Karelian: http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA13_51.pdf

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