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Thread: How have Finnish people changed over the millennia?

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    How have Finnish people changed over the millennia?

    I am interested in learning more about the Finnish people's genetic history.

    Are the modern Finns alike to those throughout other periods of history. How have they changed through the Mesolithic, neolithic and pre Christian era primarily?

    From what I have read, there has been a significant continuation between the modern Finns and the first post-Ice Age inhabitants of Finland.

    Their language and religion is non Proto-Indo European (implying little steppe ancestry), they do have some Proto-Germanic, Proto-Norse loanwords still in their language though. They say the Finnish language is like a "freezer" for ancient words.

    I'm interested in genetics and phenotypal changes in the Finnish people over time.
    Last edited by PerceptionDeception; 02-13-2018 at 12:49 PM.

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    Y Haplogroups of Finland:

    N1c (59%)
    I1a (28%)
    R1a (5%)
    R1b (3.5%)

    Mitchondrial Haplogroups of Finland:

    H (~40%)
    U (~30%)
    D, I, J, HV, R, T, V, W, X, and Z (mixed amounts)

    It is my belief that haplogroup Z and possibly W is a Neanderthal / Denisovan haplogroup just because of how spread out it is and how far north. Further research on this would be useful though.

    None of the Finnish haplogroup originated in Africa, implying the Finns have been in Europe for a LONG time. I actually believe it is possible that some of the Finns had been there even through the last Ice Age which ended 10'000 years ago.
    Last edited by PerceptionDeception; 02-13-2018 at 12:54 PM.

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    This is still something of an open case. I'm assuming we are talking about the peoples that have inhabited the area of Fennoscandia since the LGM. Based on the mesolithic aDNA received from areas like Sweden and the Baltic-corded-ware-rich-in-r1a-z645.html states, I'd say the first inhabitants of Finland were a WHG-EHG mix, probably more WHG in the western coast and more EHG in Carelia as the remains from the Russian side of the border would suggest. As far as I know, no mesolithic dna has been found in the more western parts of Finland. The oldest aDNA we have is apparently the Iron Age Leväluhta genome that apparently belonged to somekind of proto-saami woman. Not surprising since there has been Saami people living in Ostro-Bothnia until the late middle ages. But before that the southern coast was inhabited by the battle axe folk that were part of the Corded Ware cultural continuity. They were most likely speaking some sort of proto-baltic IE language that still shows itself in a few toponyms. And as far as I know western Finland received some proto-germanic immigrants from southern Scandinavia during the late Bronze Age. It's still a big mystery though when the ancestors of Baltic Finns arrived to Fennoscandia. My bet would be during the Iron Age but it's totally possible that they inhabited Eastern Karelia already in the Bronze Age since at least part of the Comb Ceramic peoples could have been Uralic speakers as far as genetics would suggest. I'd say the history of these peoples show up in today's Finnish dna that contains a lot of hunter gatherer ancestry. I don't think Finns are just simply immigrants from the Urals-Volga area but have a long partial continuity from the pre-Finnic times. But I might totally off with this one. The aDNA evidence from Finland is very scarce apparently due to the acidic swamp soil that covers most of the land.
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2015/09...genes.html?m=1
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2017/11...ggest.html?m=1

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    Perhaps the OP does'nt know Mauri Myllylä's blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fr/ (no panic, it's in english). There is a lot to learn on this blog.
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  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by PerceptionDeception View Post
    Y Haplogroups of Finland:

    N1c (59%)
    I1a (28%)
    R1a (5%)
    R1b (3.5%)

    Mitchondrial Haplogroups of Finland:

    H (~40%)
    U (~30%)
    D, I, J, HV, R, T, V, W, X, and Z (mixed amounts)

    It is my belief that haplogroup Z and possibly W is a Neanderthal / Denisovan haplogroup just because of how spread out it is and how far north. Further research on this would be useful though.

    None of the Finnish haplogroup originated in Africa, implying the Finns have been in Europe for a LONG time. I actually believe it is possible that some of the Finns had been there even through the last Ice Age which ended 10'000 years ago.
    Haplogroup W and Z are Neanderthal in origin? Lol c'mon man you can't be serious. Anyone who has read a bit about ancient genetics knows that there are no modern day mtDNA or Y-DNA haplogroups that come from Neanderthals.

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    It's a supposition and not proven. Obviously we are brainwashed with Out of Africa from the cradle nowadays but there is simply not enough proof at this point of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PerceptionDeception View Post
    It's a supposition and not proven. Obviously we are brainwashed with Out of Africa from the cradle nowadays but there is simply not enough proof at this point of that.
    OK, let me ask you a question. Do you have any idea *why* we think W and Z are not Neanderthal haplogroups? Not referring to overarching theories here.

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    To my knowledge we suppose that all modern haplogroups stem from an ancestor haplogrouo in Africa, Y chromosomal "Adam" and mitochondrial "Eve". We assume this ancestry based on how the variations changed over time and by attempting to map migration paths of ancient peoples.

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    Its really irrelevant though to my question about the history of Finns, so please refrain on here. I have an Out of Africa thread separate if you want to talk about it.

    PS: I'm more or a multiregional hypothesis guy, but the Out of Australia theory is starting to emerge as a plausible alternative.
    Last edited by PerceptionDeception; 02-13-2018 at 04:17 PM.

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    So no, you have no idea.

    How the heck do you expect to learn anything if every time you hear something that clashes with your preconceptions you dismiss it as brainwashing?
    Last edited by Megalophias; 02-13-2018 at 04:43 PM.

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