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Thread: "The genetic forge of Europe", by Carles Lalueza-Fox

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    And his arguments against the Steppe hypothesis at the end of the article are weak, and that's an understatement.
    Sometimes the weak arguments at the end of one's academic book -- or a chapter in it, or a journal article -- are inserted at the insistence of an Editor, who was urged (to get that part revised) by a Reader, who held some viewpoint different from that of the actual Author. I agree with rms2 that Lalueza-Fox seems to have understood what Allentoft, Haak, Matthieson, Reich and others have recently been finding (with more and better aDNA sampling), and what it means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Honestly, I think he was simply reciting the objections to the steppe hypothesis rather than objecting to it himself. I've exchanged a few emails with Lalueza Fox, and it seems to me he is in the Kurgan camp.
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    Sometimes the weak arguments at the end of one's academic book -- or a chapter in it, or a journal article -- are inserted at the insistence of an Editor, who was urged (to get that part revised) by a Reader, who held some viewpoint different from that of the actual Author. I agree with rms2 that Lalueza-Fox seems to have understood what Allentoft, Haak, Matthieson, Reich and others have recently been finding (with more and better aDNA sampling), and what it means.
    It wasn't the insistence of an editor. The book is a history, in chronological order, of using DNA testing to study the origins of the European populations. He states that clearly in the prologue. So he is providing the arguments and counter arguments used by various camps because that is part of the chronological story.

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    The massive Olalde et al (2018) paper has been released. Although there are 144 co-authors and collaborators of various sorts (the list reads like a Who's Who in genetics, anthropology and linguistics), three people actually wrote the manuscript: Olalde, Reich, and Lalueza-Fox. So, the author of this book clearly knew what was in, or going to be in, the "Beaker Phenomenon" paper.
    Last edited by razyn; 02-22-2018 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Counted the co-authors

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    I had already purchased the book when I posted a link to it since I already understood that the article contained what was only an excerpt and that more will be said in the book. Another reason I purchased the book is because the PDF, with other excerpts, at http://www.publicacions.ub.edu/hojea...hero=08804.pdf contains information that I found interesting including the prologue. I am able to read Spanish without having to use a translator.
    Have you had chance to read much of it?
    How well illustrated is it?
    What do you think now?
    Out of 64 pre 1800 births 45% Cheshire, 1% Scottish (or Irish), 25% south Derbyshire, 13% Burton on Trent area (where 4 counties within 10 miles), 7% Shropshire, 1% Staffs, 8% Lancs. So far all UK despite what the testing companies say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Have you had chance to read much of it?
    How well illustrated is it?
    What do you think now?
    I have read some of it. There aren't any illustrations. It is mostly as history of the study of ancient populations of Europe through DNA testing as I had mentioned in another post and also what is mentioned from the description of the book here.

    La forja genética de Europa explica este proceso de descubrimiento apasionante, así como las luchas y alianzas entre distintos grupos de investigación para ser los primeros en entender la ancestralidad de los europeos actuales.
    The book is mostly for people new to the DNA studies and like to read news stories instead of the actual studies and also for people that like to read a bit about stories behind the studies. I prefer reading the academic publications as opposed to news stories but I also like reading a bit about the stories behind the studies so I still enjoyed the book.

    He concludes in chapter 16, which is the last one, that Indo-European languages are associated with the Yamnaya pastorilists from the Steppe and with the Bell Beakers that followed. He also states that the success of the pastorilists was probably due to two reasons - horse domestication and horse-drawn carts. He states that the invasion was violent and might have been assisted by epidemics such as the plague.

    He mentions the exceptions where languages currently spoken in some regions aren't Indo-European, such as Finnish and Hungarian, are due to more recent cultural diffusion since there is a low genetic impact. Euskera is stated as being an older language that didn't change because the Basques have a lower rate of Steppe DNA. I have also mentioned in another thread that Euskera is an older language that was already in Iberia before the Steppe DNA showed appeared in Iberia. He also mentions that Steppe DNA has been in Iberia since 2000-2400 BC. The more recent study by Valdiosera et al. 2018 has more information for those of us interested in Iberian pre-history.

    Carles doesn't mention subclades of R1b at all so P312 and so on are completely absent from the book which is a disappointment. He does mention that the Steppe pastorilists have almost 90% R1b and that is it rarely found in other cultures.

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    Interestingly, the admixture graph in a more recent study by Valdiosera et al. 2018 contradicts the statement by Carles that Basques have a lower amount of Steppe DNA than the rest of Iberia.

    F2.large.jpg

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    And by "a more recent study," here you mean "preprint published yesterday, online." But it is also the first study to report an actual sequenced aDNA sample from Iberia that has tested DF27+. It's from a cave in the somewhat isolated wine-growing region of La Rioja, and the context was not preserved when the excavation was done in the 1970s. No stratigraphy, no radiocarbon dates. However, associated artifacts suggest a date range of about 1700-1550 BC.

    Thanks for reviewing the new Lalueza-Fox book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    And by "a more recent study," here you mean "preprint published yesterday, online." But it is also the first study to report an actual sequenced aDNA sample from Iberia that has tested DF27+. It's from a cave in the somewhat isolated wine-growing region of La Rioja, and the context was not preserved when the excavation was done in the 1970s. No stratigraphy, no radiocarbon dates. However, associated artifacts suggest a date range of about 1700-1550 BC.

    Thanks for reviewing the new Lalueza-Fox book.
    There are two Bell Beaker specimens in the Olalde et al. 2018 that tested positive for P312 but don't seem to have reads for DF27 so it is possible that they are positive for DF27 since they are dated to 2500–2000 BCE for I6539 and 2280–1984 calBCE for I5665 and YFull has a TMRCA of 4500 ybp (abt 2500 BC). That means that DF27 was already about 500 years old if the specimens didn't make it to Iberia until 2000 BCE but if it made it closer to 2500 BCE then not many centuries had passed since YFull dates are possibly about 10% too young. So DF27 could have made a very early entry into Iberia.

    I6539 and I5665 cluster near modern French Basques and Spanish Basques in a PCA created by Davidski.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 03-13-2018 at 02:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    There are two Bell Beaker specimens in the Olalde et al. 2018 that tested positive for P312 but don't seem to have reads for DF27 so it is possible that they are positive for DF27 since they are dated to 2500–2000 BCE for I6539 and 2280–1984 calBCE for I5665 and YFull has a TMRCA of 4500 ybp (abt 2500 BC). That means that DF27 was already about 500 years old if the specimens didn't make it to Iberia until 2000 BCE but if it made it closer to 2500 BCE then not many centuries had passed since YFull dates are possibly about 10% too young. So DF27 could have made a very early entry into Iberia.

    I6539 and I5665 cluster near modern French Basques and Spanish Basques in a PCA created by Davidski.
    Iain McDonald gets an age for DF27 at 3028 BC (3741 BC — 2423 BC) http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...emp/table.html

    His more recent unpublished date is about 50 years younger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Iain McDonald gets an age for DF27 at 3028 BC (3741 BC — 2423 BC) http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/ge...emp/table.html

    His more recent unpublished date is about 50 years younger.
    It's unfortunate that there isn't a plethora of ancient P312 and U106 specimens with 6x coverage (seems to be the maximum) that can cause these date estimates by YFull and Iain to be more accurate and similar to each other.

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