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Thread: "The genetic forge of Europe", by Carles Lalueza-Fox

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    Interestingly, the admixture graph in a more recent study by Valdiosera et al. 2018 contradicts the statement by Carles that Basques have a lower amount of Steppe DNA than the rest of Iberia.

    Attachment 22085
    In that study of Valdiosera they say the iberian BBs have same steppe as modern iberians, quote : ". The estimates for Bronze Age Iberians are close to the 15% steppe ancestry estimated for the modern Spanish population (Fig. 2 "
    When we have seen cleaerly both in PCa and with other tools (nMonte, qpAdm,..) that Iberian Bell-Beakers had less Steppe than modern Iberians, and that modern Iberians are closer to 30% steppe (this is also in agreement with the interview with Carles Lalueza-Fox, he estimated also 30% steppe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    In that study of Valdiosera they say the iberian BBs have same steppe as modern iberians, quote : ". The estimates for Bronze Age Iberians are close to the 15% steppe ancestry estimated for the modern Spanish population (Fig. 2 "
    When we have seen cleaerly both in PCa and with other tools (nMonte, qpAdm,..) that Iberian Bell-Beakers had less Steppe than modern Iberians, and that modern Iberians are closer to 30% steppe (this is also in agreement with the interview with Carles Lalueza-Fox, he estimated also 30% steppe).
    It depends on which set of Iberian BB's one is talking about. The early Iberian BB's of the Neolithic collective graves, who were mostly I2a, with a couple of V88's, had no steppe dna, but the later Kurgan Iberian BB's of the single graves under a round burial mound, who were R1b-P312 and came from the east, had plenty of steppe dna.

    If I was at home I could consult the Olalde et al spreadsheet and Supplementary Info and get specific, but unfortunately I'm not at home.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-13-2018 at 06:06 PM.
     


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    It depends on which set of Iberian BB's one is talking about. The early Iberian BB's of the Neolithic collective graves, who were mostly I2a, with a couple of V88's, had no steppe dna, but the later Kurgan Iberian BB's of the single graves under a round burial mound, who were R1b-P312 and came from the east, had plenty of steppe dna.

    If I was at home I could consult the Olalde et al spreadsheet and Supplementary Info and get specific, but unfortunately I'm not at home.
    Bell Beakers from Olade (~15% steppe, in agreement also with the study of Valdiosera):

    [1] "distance%=1.0291 / distance=0.010291"
    Beaker_Iberia

    Iberia_ChL 48.15
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia 15.25
    Iberia_MN 15.1
    Iberia_Central_CA 14.65
    Remedello_BA 6.55

    But...here comes the disagreement, modern Iberians ~30% steppe ( same figure as Carles Lalueza-Fox) :


    [1] "distance%=2.6341 / distance=0.026341"
    Spanish_Cantabria

    "Iberia_MN" 59.95
    "Yamnaya_Kalmykia" 30.95
    "Anatolia_BA" 7.45
    "Moroccan" 1.65

    [1] "distance%=2.497 / distance=0.02497"
    Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

    "Iberia_MN" 55.55
    "Yamnaya_Kalmykia" 28.5
    "Anatolia_BA" 12.35
    "Moroccan" 3.6

    [1] "distance%=3.5783 / distance=0.035783"
    Spanish_Pais_Vasco

    "Iberia_MN" 68.2
    "Yamnaya_Kalmykia" 31.8

    Carles lalueza-Fox, quote from newspaper :

    According to him the "Kurgans" left a "a high genetic impact" on Iberia. He claimed Iberians are "50% neolithic, and the other half is distributed between 30% kurgán and 20% hunter collector."
    Last edited by sweuro; 03-13-2018 at 06:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    In that study of Valdiosera they say the iberian BBs have same steppe as modern iberians, quote : ". The estimates for Bronze Age Iberians are close to the 15% steppe ancestry estimated for the modern Spanish population Fig. 2B "
    When we have seen cleaerly both in PCa and with other tools (nMonte, qpAdm,..) that Iberian Bell-Beakers had less Steppe than modern Iberians, and that modern Iberians are closer to 30% steppe (this is also in agreement with the interview with Carles Lalueza-Fox, he estimated also 30% steppe).
    The point by rms2 is important. Not all Bell Beakers are the same. There were Bell Beakers in Spain completely void of Steppe DNA. They were also the specimens that weren't positive for R1b-M269. They were the specimens from BK_Spain_Cer (10), BK_Spain_BUR1 (2), and BK_Spain_MAD1 (7). The Valdiosera study only used two Bronze Age specimens from Iberia. Coincidentally they both have both Steppe autosomal DNA and positive results for R1b-M269. These specimens either had less Steppe DNA than some of the other specimens that Olalde and Carles had their hands on or the calculator isn't as good. Since the Spanish_IBS in the Valdiosera study have less Steppe then what Carles has been quoted as saying modern Spaniards have then the calculator might not be as good as the one that Carles used.

    Table S4. of the Supplementary PDF of Olalde et al. 2018 shows BK_Spain_BUR2 (3), BK_Spain_MAD2 (4), and BK_Spain_Mag1 (1) to all have at least 23% Steppe_EBA. The P312 positive specimens I5665 and I6539 belong to BK_Spain_BUR2 and BK_Spain_MAD2 respectively. BK_Spain_Mag1 (1) has the highest amount of Steppe_EBA at 50.2% and BK_Spain_MAD2 (4) has the next highest at 34.5%. The total comes out to 32.15% if number of sample for each group and percentage for each group is multiplied, then the product from each group is added togethor, then divide the product total by the total 8 specimens. So in that regard those specimens do show that on average the Steppe DNA is almost the same as what Carles stated is the average for modern Iberians.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 03-13-2018 at 07:40 PM.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    Bell Beakers from Olade (~15% steppe, in agreement also with the study of Valdiosera):

    [1] "distance%=1.0291 / distance=0.010291"
    Beaker_Iberia

    Iberia_ChL 48.15
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia 15.25
    Iberia_MN 15.1
    Iberia_Central_CA 14.65
    Remedello_BA 6.55
    Which samples were used for that calculation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    The point by rms2 is important. Not all Bell Beakers are the same. There were Bell Beakers in Spain completely void of Steppe DNA. They were also the specimens that weren't positive for R1b-M269. They were the specimens from BK_Spain_Cer (10), BK_Spain_BUR1 (2), and BK_Spain_MAD1 (7). The Valdiosera study only used two Bronze Age specimens from Iberia. Coincidentally they both have both Steppe autosomal DNA and positive results for R1b-M269. These specimens either had less Steppe DNA than some of the other specimens that Olalde and Carles had their hands on or the calculator isn't as good. Since the Spanish_IBS in the Valdiosera study have less Steppe then what Carles has been quoted as saying modern Spaniards have then the calculator might not be as good as the one that Carles used.

    Table S4. of the Supplementary PDF of Olalde et al. 2018 shows BK_Spain_BUR2 (3), BK_Spain_MAD2 (4), and BK_Spain_Mag1 (1) to all have at least 23% Steppe_EBA. The P312 positive specimens I5665 and I6539 belong to BK_Spain_BUR2 and BK_Spain_MAD2 respectively. BK_Spain_Mag1 (1) has the highest amount of Steppe_EBA at 50.2% and BK_Spain_MAD2 (4) has the next highest at 34.5%. The total comes out to 32.15% if number of sample for each group and percentage for each group is multiplied, then the product from each group is added togethor, then divide the product total by the total 8 specimens. So in that regard those specimens do show that on average the Steppe DNA is almost the same as what Carles stated is the average for modern Iberians.
    That sample I6471 or BK_Spain_Mag1 with 50% steppe is Y haplogroup CT xI xG xE... it would be interesting if someone could squeeze more informations about SNPs from the BAM file, at least to know if it is positive to some calls on the R-M269 level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    That sample I6471 or BK_Spain_Mag1 with 50% steppe is Y haplogroup CT xI xG xE... it would be interesting if someone could squeeze more informations about SNPs from the BAM file, at least to know if it is positive to some calls on the R-M269 level.
    There are only 36656 SNPs in autosomes for that specimen which points to very poor coverage but maybe a significant SNP can be found anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sweuro View Post
    Bell Beakers from Olade (~15% steppe, in agreement also with the study of Valdiosera):

    [1] "distance%=1.0291 / distance=0.010291"
    Beaker_Iberia

    Iberia_ChL 48.15
    Yamnaya_Kalmykia 15.25
    Iberia_MN 15.1
    Iberia_Central_CA 14.65
    Remedello_BA 6.55

    But...here comes the disagreement, modern Iberians ~30% steppe ( same figure as Carles Lalueza-Fox) :


    [1] "distance%=2.6341 / distance=0.026341"
    Spanish_Cantabria

    "Iberia_MN" 59.95
    "Yamnaya_Kalmykia" 30.95
    "Anatolia_BA" 7.45
    "Moroccan" 1.65

    [1] "distance%=2.497 / distance=0.02497"
    Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

    "Iberia_MN" 55.55
    "Yamnaya_Kalmykia" 28.5
    "Anatolia_BA" 12.35
    "Moroccan" 3.6

    [1] "distance%=3.5783 / distance=0.035783"
    Spanish_Pais_Vasco

    "Iberia_MN" 68.2
    "Yamnaya_Kalmykia" 31.8

    Carles lalueza-Fox, quote from newspaper :

    According to him the "Kurgans" left a "a high genetic impact" on Iberia. He claimed Iberians are "50% neolithic, and the other half is distributed between 30% kurgán and 20% hunter collector."
    When assessing Bell Beakers, even the ones that have steppe ancestry, we are likely going to get different percentages based on a lot of different factors. Was it an immigrant that came directly from a high steppe area? Was it that immigrant's son who was born from a local Copper Age mother? Etc.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Asturias, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain

    Avatar: Bell Beaker East Group Warrior circa 2500 BC. (after Heyd 2000; drawing B. Richter)

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    There are only 36656 SNPs in autosomes for that specimen which points to very poor coverage but maybe a significant SNP can be found anyway.
    I wrote to Genetiker on the comment section of Bell Beaker Y-SNPs calls.

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    Maju wrote an article on his blog about that DF27 being not indoeuropean.

    I believed that also Cogotas I was Indoeuropean...

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