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Thread: Scottish Royalty SNP Connections

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    Scottish Royalty SNP Connections

    I'm interested in L21 SNPs that believe they have a connection to Scottish Royalty. Have your paternal lineages been proven through credible sources, like The Peerage, or others? What is your best argument for such claims? I'm just getting started in research that may prove a Scottish royalty connection with L193. M222 shares an almost identical Distant Ancestor geographical map with L193, and they too believe they have Scottish royalty connections. Where do you believe your Distant Ancestors entered the Scottish royalty? I'd be interested in looking at all studies that make Scottish royalty claims. I'd even be interested in learning techniques used, and results achieved to prove old Clan paternal connections, like the McDonalds: I've been to their website, and it is interesting material -- I'd like to read more details.

    SNPs under 2000 years of age may prove the best candidates to prove/argue a Scottish royalty connection. All thoughts, studies, links, suggestions welcome.

    Daryl
    181420
    L193

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaoL193 View Post
    <snip>M222 shares an almost identical Distant Ancestor geographical map with L193, and they too believe they have Scottish royalty connections.
    Daryl
    181420
    L193
    This is news to me, please expand on this. Evidence/data?

    thanks
    MacUalraig

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaoL193 View Post
    I'm interested in L21 SNPs that believe they have a connection to Scottish Royalty. Have your paternal lineages been proven through credible sources, like The Peerage, or others? What is your best argument for such claims? I'm just getting started in research that may prove a Scottish royalty connection with L193. M222 shares an almost identical Distant Ancestor geographical map with L193, and they too believe they have Scottish royalty connections. Where do you believe your Distant Ancestors entered the Scottish royalty? I'd be interested in looking at all studies that make Scottish royalty claims. I'd even be interested in learning techniques used, and results achieved to prove old Clan paternal connections, like the McDonalds: I've been to their website, and it is interesting material -- I'd like to read more details.

    SNPs under 2000 years of age may prove the best candidates to prove/argue a Scottish royalty connection. All thoughts, studies, links, suggestions welcome.

    Daryl
    181420
    L193
    I am intrigued.......this has been mentioned before but the Chiefs of both Clan MacLaren and Clan MacGregor are both Scots Modal L1065+ and I'm pretty sure they have claimed royal lines of descent. Alpin for the MacGregors and Loarn mac Eirc for the Clan MacLaren, I also find it interesting that they were rivals. As to the authenticity of the claims, I'm not sure. I am afraid I dont know much about L193, what are your findings?

    Cheers
    Last edited by Magnus_Eunson; 09-21-2013 at 12:01 AM.

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    The Royal House of Stewart is L21>DF13>DF41>L744>L745. Richard Scott, the 10th Duke of Buccleuch, y-dna descendant of Charles II, tested L745+ (S463+) with ScotlandsDNA, and he matches the haplotype (no, I don't know on how many markers) of a descendant of Charles Stewart of Ardshiel who fought at Culloden.

    Richard Scott 10th Duke of Buccleuch.jpg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86egt8PDmos

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaoL193 View Post
    I'm interested in L21 SNPs that believe they have a connection to Scottish Royalty. Have your paternal lineages been proven through credible sources, like The Peerage, or others? What is your best argument for such claims? I'm just getting started in research that may prove a Scottish royalty connection with L193. M222 shares an almost identical Distant Ancestor geographical map with L193, and they too believe they have Scottish royalty connections. Where do you believe your Distant Ancestors entered the Scottish royalty? I'd be interested in looking at all studies that make Scottish royalty claims. I'd even be interested in learning techniques used, and results achieved to prove old Clan paternal connections, like the McDonalds: I've been to their website, and it is interesting material -- I'd like to read more details.

    SNPs under 2000 years of age may prove the best candidates to prove/argue a Scottish royalty connection. All thoughts, studies, links, suggestions welcome.

    Daryl
    181420
    L193
    The majority of highlander Scottish, Irish, and Welsh people have R1b1a2a1a2c L21 and about 80% have Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116 so would their royalty. Do u have anymore info on SNP's and ways to find relatives from people in the UK. Because my family is trying to figure out were our surname is from all we know is almost defintley Scotland or England and they came to America in the mid 1700's or 1600's. Maybe i can find a match in the UK. All i know is i am negative for Celtic(mainly British isles) R1b1a2a1a2c L21 and Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21. Which take up almost all R1b in the UK so that breaks me down pretty well. I have either proto Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11*, proto Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116*, Celtic(mainly Iberia and also popular in France) R1b1a2a1a2a Df27, and very very very very very very rare Germanic subclades of S116 which i dont know if they are ever found n the British isles Df19 and L238.

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    The Celtic Kings of Scotland claimed descent from the line of Fergus Mor Mac Erc so you must look to the oldest recorded pedigrees in the MS1467 manuscipt for the oldest Clans. The Royal line was closely connected with the early Celtic Church with the true line of St Columba being the best example because the Abbots of Iona were all of this bloodline for hundreds of years.

    Clan Chattan is the best example with the leaders of this conferderation of Clans claiming descent from Lorne Son of Fergus Mor through descent from Gille Chatten Mor, Clans include McIntosh, Davidson, McPherson, Gillis etc. The Islands of Scotland are an excellant source for ancient Royal DNA where the inhabitants have existed since earliest times, with such surnames as McLellan (Devotees of 6th century St Faolain), McInnes whose ancestors are actually buried on Iona, McDonald from the Celtic Lord of the Isles descent (the latter Clan Chiefs are of Norse Descent possibly due to NPE) McGregor and other clans claming descent from Kenneth Mac Alpine etc.

    If you look through the 1467 MS (link below) you will see all the various Clans claiming ancient Royal Descent

    http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/01b%20introduction.html

    Any credible Claiment for descent from one of these this ancient Royal lines must show DNA matches to a mixture of these earliest Clans with also a connection to an early Irish source which is the source of these ancient bloodlines. There will probably be a number of differant types of DNA amongst the earliest Dalriada settlers however the criteria remains the same for each.

    Regards

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    Hello Daryl,
    Which male line do you believe you're descended from (you can send me a private message if you don't want to post it publicly)? Do you have a family tradition of this? This can be anything from historic family lore to actually having a title. Have you hired a professional genealogist? What is the most recent common ancestor you have been able to prove using DNA in terms of your family name?

    George

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    I realize the sensitivity of the subject, which is why I suggest that available clinical data be put forward to support particular SNP claims to Scottish royalty. While it may be a na´ve goal I believe that many can benefit from sharing their results here. To avoid dissension, objectivity will need to remain paramount. Given that, I freely admit ignorance of British Isle history. What seems to be unanimous is the general belief that ancient records cannot be relied on as factual. I recently came across Pinkerton's writings regarding the House of Lorn, Argyll, Dalriada, and the Alpin Kings of Scotland to whom I have a mere hunch are connected to L193. Here is the Pinkerton link: http://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ecco/004...ulltext;q1=Aod It seems apparent that language and culture must be separated from Y-DNA haplogroups within them. The Saxons may have overpowered the Angles, but the Angle language and culture appeared to remain (per Pinkerton). Pinkerton suggests the same happened with the Picts conquering Dalriada in mid 8th century -- they adopted the spoken and written language of the gaels (Scoti). The Picts did not have a written language at that time. Religion seems to be a crucial factor also, as revealed in names of Scottish Kings like Malcolm, which, when broken down, means 'servant of' (Maol) 'Columba' (colm). Columba was an important Christian evangelist figure who originated from Ireland. While the gaels may have been the advanced culture, it appears they were not stronger than the Picts whom Pinkerton claims ended Irish power in Dalriada: The descendants of these same Picts then became Kings of Scotland.

    L193 has been aged in different ranges from about 100 AD to 900 AD, but the sweet spot appears to be around 400 to 800 AD. I lean to the older estimates. It has five surnames that dominate the haplogroup: McLain, Vance, Glendonwyn, Elliott, and Little. The Vance group has traced their paternal genealogy back to the 14th century. Another surname, Kennedy, comprises about 11% of that surname's Project, their largest single group. Their ancient name, Cinaed, lends strong support to their connection to the Alpin kings of Scotland, starting with Kenneth (Cinaed) McAlpin. One L193 member believes he may descend from ancient Kennedys, including the first Lord Kennedy. The McLains have not yet proven their Clan chiefs are L193, but I suspect they are since L193 McLains comprise the largest single group within that surname project. The oldest known paternal ancestor of the McLains is apparently 'Old' Dugald of Scone who was born about mid 11th century.

    As previously stated, I'm just getting started in the quest of proving L193 ties to early Scottish royalty, but the circumstantial evidence seems to point to them. When I recently read Pinkerton's writings that suggested that Duncha Beg, 'the little', was a strong suspected ancestor of Kenneth McAlpin, first King of Scotland, I began to suspect a L193 connection to early Scottish royalty. An M222 friend has suggested that M222 may be connected to Scottish royalty through the Donnachaid, or Duncans. This seems to be a plausible theory as L193 doesn't have many Duncans: They suspect the M222 connection may be through Crinan of Dunkeld, who married into royalty and was the paternal ancestor of the Duncan Scottish royalty. (Pinkerton suggests this Crinan was an Abbot) I'd long suspected a connection between L193 and M222. The following link reveals a geographical ancestor map of M222, which is an almost exact duplicate of L193 ancestors: http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/ This suggests to me that these two cousins probably walked the same ground at the same time through their connection to the Scottish royalty.

    L193 is the largest haplogroup within L513, a son of DF13, a son of L21. Analysis of 111 markers suggests that pre-L193 ancestors may have originated in Wales, through the L513 subgroup B2 who can be identified through the L705/L706 SNPs (L706, father SNP of L705, is about the same age as L193, but much smaller in number).

    My last name is Martin, and my oldest paternal ancestor was Duncan Martin b.c. 1765, possibly Minard, Argyll. I suspect we are actually Mcleans, as they are our closest matches in large numbers. My Martins are the only Martin family in L193, which has many single family surnames. My unmet Scot cousin (3rd, once removed), Angus, still lives in Campbeltown where our shared oldest ancestor, Duncan, was a shoemaker. Since my haplotype is very close to the modal for our haplogroup, I tend to get many more matches than the average: At 67 I have about 200, and at 111, about 45. The L193 haplogroup consists of about 450 known haplotypes, and more are discovered continuously. The GD range of diversity from the L193 modal is about 16. The Vances (of Barnbaroch) and Littles have the most STR mutations, so their haplotypes are easily recognizable.

    I should also mention that surnames not found in a specific SNP can also add to circumstantial evidence. Interestingly, our L193 haplogroup does not include any McGuires, though they are found within our L513 haplogroup (about 3000 years old): Of course, there are other examples.

    Best,

    Daryl

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    May I suggest, if you want to develop your theories, that you read some more up to date Scottish history? The New Edinburgh History of Scotland series is the latest word on the subject so I would grab the early volumes of the series. Then if necessary you can follow up the sources they cite.

    http://www.euppublishing.com/series/NEHS

    It baffles me why you keep quoting Pinkerton!

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    Mac:

    Thanks for the link. Pinkerton was just somebody I recently stumbled upon while googling: I don't know anything about him. His theory about Pictish insertion into Dalriada seems sound upon first glance, and he goes to great length in his arguments. I'd gladly accept some more input from you on the subject. Per google, his theory has not been discounted. Is it your assertion that the Alpin Kings must have had Irish(Scoti) Y-DNA, and/or couldn't be Pictish? Thanks.

    Daryl

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