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Thread: Scottish Royalty SNP Connections

  1. #11
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    Daryl,

    Firstly to go back to your earlier point, the historical distribution maps for M222 and L193 are not that similar. It is true that we in M222 have more scientific data for various reasons whereas L193 is probably more reliant on user submitted data with biased sampling, but even so I don't see the similarity. M222 can be extracted from some of the older scientific studies like Sykes and Capelli as well as the Moore/McEvoy paper. I'm still not clear which maps you are talking about but no map of M222 has ever made it look like the distribution of L193 that I am aware of - I do follow the L193 forum too although I don't post on it. The distribution is always heavier on the Irish side of the sea than the Scottish for example and extends quite far south right down to the Munster border and sometimes beyond. No L193 down there that I am aware of?

    The link between the Ui Neill and Dalriada has been discussed quite a few times on the M222 list. The late John McLaughlin was the great expert on these matters and was if I recall very sceptical - you would have to search the archives for his thoughts on it (search for posts under his old email Lochlan@aol.com).

    If your interest is Crinan abbot of Dunkeld I would recommend you read 'The problem of Crinan' in 'The fall of the House of Alpin' by Alex Woolf in his NEHS2 volume I mentioned earlier, pp249-52. You can't (at least in Scotland!) read all those pages online in Google books. Alex Woolf represents the very latest scholarship on the subject.

    Crinan has also been discussed again on the M222 list and elsewhere online in relation to the Robertsons, including some research by a normally very thorough historian which I don't agree with. It remains unproven in my view; that isn't to say it is wrong though. But the burden of proof lies with those making the claims.


    Again Woolf in the same book has a lot on 'Cinaed son of Alpin or Ciniod son of Elphin?' including some discussion of the question 'is it possible that Cinaed was a Pict?'.

    I know you say you have googled but the difficulty with starting out like that is knowing what are good secondary sources and what aren't. I am doing Scottish history at Glasgow University so perhaps I may offer some suggestions as to what the good sources are. I haven't met Woolf but I have been to talks by Professor Dauvit Broun and am just reading the paperback edition of his book 'Scottish independence and the idea of Britain: from the Picts to Alexander III' which was written at the same time as the Woolf book. Here is a little quote to whet your appetite:

    http://www.euppublishing.com/book/9780748685196

    "The extreme weakness of the evidential basis for Cinaed's 'Scottish' takeover of Pictland is today widely recognised by scholars, and as a result there has been a significant shift of emphasis in recent scholarship. Cinaed's pivotal role has been qualified and even challenged, either by positing an earlier dynasty of Gaelic kings who rules both Picts and Dal Riata, and whose legacy Cinaed therefore continued to develop, or (more commonly) by concentrating attention on the change from Pictish to Alba-based terminology visible by 900".


    I believe the Kennedy L193 percentage is being distorted by immigration into the new world. It is quite hard to spot in Scotland so far. But maybe those lines withered out here so who knows.

    MacUalraig

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to MacUalraig For This Useful Post:

     Grossvater (09-23-2013)

  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacUalraig View Post
    ... I do follow the L193 forum too although I don't post on it. The distribution is always heavier on the Irish side of the sea than the Scottish for example and extends quite far south right down to the Munster border and sometimes beyond. No L193 down there that I am aware of? ...
    You might be confusing L513 with L193. I'm the project admin for L513, where L193 sits. I label the variety "513-A1". It seems to be a great (reliable) STR signature.

    513-A1 (L193) folks by country:

    England - 30 (mostly northerly)
    Scotland 169 - (mostly Borders region)
    Ireland - (heavy Ulster orientation)
    Germany - 1
    Hungary - 1

    Many of the folks in Ulster think they migrated there in more recent times from Scotland.

    I'm pretty sure this has something to with the Borders region and possibly even the the Border Reivers folks as three of the largest sunames in these people are Little/Lytle, Glendenninng/Clendenon/Glendonwyn and Elliott/Elwood. Adam B has written a report you should read. There seems to be some tie back to a "Douglas" character. They do not necessarily relate to him on the Y side, but appear to have some kind of alliance.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/1...ade_Report.pdf

    If you take out the Little's, the group is fairly young, like about 1000 years old. The Little's have two odd mutations, that may both me multi-step. That's my guess so I really do think this is a young subclade that was prolific.

    Two other large surnames in this are a Highland McClain/MacLean group and a Vance/Van/Vaux(of Barnbarroch) group. Some in the latter think they may be from France. I have no idea.

    Adam Bradford reports,
    "The Elliott, Glendonwyn, and Little branches all have traditions of descent not just to the borders region, but to the same small area of the borders around Eskdale, Ewesdale, and Liddisdale.
    ....
    An (McClain) origin near Inverness would be supported by McClain tradition, since a significant branch was established there in the year 1398
    ...
    The A1 Vaus group contains the lineal heir of Barnbarroch, who has a reliable pedigree based on
    documentary evidence to Robert Vaus of Barnbarroch (fl.1450s)..... Before Dirleton, it is generally accepted that the Scottish Vaux were from the same family as the Vaux of Gillisland in Cumberland, England."
    Last edited by Mikewww; 09-23-2013 at 10:29 PM.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaoL193 View Post
    ...
    L193 is the largest haplogroup within L513, a son of DF13, a son of L21. Analysis of 111 markers suggests that pre-L193 ancestors may have originated in Wales, through the L513 subgroup B2 who can be identified through the L705/L706 SNPs (L706, father SNP of L705, is about the same age as L193, but much smaller in number)...
    The genetic distances between A1 (L193) and B2 (L706.2) are quite large so even though both may be about a 1000 years old how they got to their launching spots may be quite different. The B2 people really do have a Welsh orientation, though, with a Frenchman and Swede to throw a little doubt on that. I don't see anything that really looks like pre-L193, but I don't think they are from Wales.

  5. #14
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    No Mike, you chopped off the previous sentence in your quote thus reversing the meaning of what I was saying. 'The distribution...' follows a sentence the subject of which is M222 distribution. But I admit I could have written more clearly.

    cheers
    MacUalraig

  6. #15
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    Hi All,

    This is all very interesting. I've been following the L193 development for some time (as I'm one myself!).

    Although I take the point that the M222 and L193 distribution is not entirely the same, there surely seems to be a clear Scottish/Northern Irish bias. The earlier comment that the Dalriadans would have had different DNA types is spot on: there can be no such thing as one single 'Dalriada' DNA type. Dalriada is interesting, and I note that some of the tribes of northern Ireland (e.g. Ulaid or Cruithne) were actually pushed out of the region, by the Airgialla and Ui Neill, and almost certainly started colonising western Scotland, maybe even before Dalriada was established. Woolf also mentions this in his book.

    I have long suspected a connection with the Cenel Na Gabrain, a leading Dalriada group, and thought to be the ancestors of many Scottish royal lines, including Siol Alpin. Aiden Na Gabrain was crowned with St. Columba in attendance, the first recorded 'consecration' of a monarch. At some stage, whatever happened, the Pictish and Gaelic lines merged, and the House of Alpin was born. The map distribution of L193, and indeed many of the surnames (Kennedy, MacKenzie, MacGregor etc.) would support it. The problem is that the Picts traced their royal lineage down the female line rather than the male line, so the normal Y-DNA path is distorted when it comes to genealogy. The Lords of Galloway, including a Kennedy link, were said to be related to the old Alpin line also (the first recorded was Suibne Mac Cinaeda). So the Picts, whoever they were, would seem to forge the L193 link between Galloway, Perthshire, in the old Pictland, and Argyll. And even the Cruithne of Northern Ireland were described as Picts.

    A new piece of breaking history is the discovery of the so-called 'Galloway Picts'. This is an ongoing archaeological project investigating mysterious Pictish engravings found in Galloway. Until now it was considered odd that such markings were found so far south, but now they think they might have found the key to an ancient (possibly royal) Pictish kingdom in the south. Here are some links:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...s-Britons.html

    http://www.gallowaypicts.com/

    Whatever the answer is, I think that the focus of L193 in Scotland and its relative youth would strongly suggest one single related line. A royal/noble line would make sense, as they would have naturally had more opportunity and political motivation for reproduction. My own feeling is that it is certainly 'celtic', either Briton or Pictish, with or without a direct connection to Dalriada and the Cenel Na Gabrain.

    As always, any thoughts or additions are greatly welcome!

  7. #16
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    From what I can see L193 in an Irish context appears to be post 1609 and that's going by surnames.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  8. #17
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    Ive read all this thread and find it fascinating. I am a McIntosh who's paper genealogy takes me to northern Perthshire with family lore that says my ancestor's father William was a close male relative of one of the Chiefs of Mackintosh. I haven't been able to find evidence on either side of argument to prove or disprove this theory. My snp tested positive for L193. So I'm a little confused on how my McIntosh's are supposed to be highland scots and I have this Scottish border connection? We have yet to get the current Mackintosh Chief tested. Now the McIntosh Chiefs have claimed descent from the Macduff house. Would this seem to prove this connection?

  9. #18
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    The Chiefs of the Mackintosh have always claimed descent through the son of the Earl of Macduff. The Macduffs claim royal descent, this may or may not be accurate. Skene thought the Mackintosh's to be male kin to the Macphersons, but this doesn't seem to be the case, now that ydna seems to be showing a difference between the Mackintoshes and the Macphersons. The chief of the Macphersons got his ydna tested, we are waiting for the Mackintosh Chief or the Clan Chattan Chief to do the same.

  10. #19
    Hello, through ancestry.com i discovered i am descendant of 7 scottish kings as followed

    Donald II
    Malcolm I
    Kenneth II
    Malcolm II
    Duncan I
    Malcolm III
    Alexander I

    I am looking for a possible Gedmatch.com kit number to compare dna with is there any known dna found from any of these kings?

  11. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgmcint View Post
    Ive read all this thread and find it fascinating. I am a McIntosh who's paper genealogy takes me to northern Perthshire with family lore that says my ancestor's father William was a close male relative of one of the Chiefs of Mackintosh. I haven't been able to find evidence on either side of argument to prove or disprove this theory. My snp tested positive for L193. So I'm a little confused on how my McIntosh's are supposed to be highland scots and I have this Scottish border connection? We have yet to get the current Mackintosh Chief tested. Now the McIntosh Chiefs have claimed descent from the Macduff house. Would this seem to prove this connection?
    From what I can see on the FTDNA map, L193 is also quite well represented in Argyll, and further north into Inverness and even further; as well as in central Scotland around Perthshire. The big focus with most of those tested seems to be in the south-west (Ayrshire/Galloway), but there definately seems to be a link to other areas. So your Highland McIntosh roots are probably correct! The question is how they link up. A7, the big junction previous to L193, also includes many big Highland families (e.g. the MacKenzies), and branches off to include Irish names also (e.g. O'Rourke, MacConnell etc.). So it's a question I think of working out how we all fit together historically. Lots of great work is being done even as I write...perhaps someone more up-to-date on the research results could comment?

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