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Thread: Was I2a-Din originally Finno-Ugric (not Slavic)?

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    Was I2a-Din originally Finno-Ugric (not Slavic)?

    Studies about Early Magyar DNA revealed that they had N1c and I2a-Din (among other haplogroups):

    http://publicatio.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1...ges_cikk_u.pdf

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...440.x/abstract

    http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/1088...isek-angol.pdf

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...520-018-0609-7

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/medievaldna.shtml

    Perhaps I2a-Din originated among Uralic-speaking populations in the forest zone of Western Russia?

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    Magyar from Karos-Eperjesszög III [12] dated to 900-950 AD - Y haplogroup I2a-Din, mt haplogroup A12,

    Magyar from Karos-Eperjesszög III [17] dated to 900-950 AD - Y haplogroup I2a-Din, mt haplogroup H6a1a.

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    Interestingly, anc21 (N1c) was Europo-Mongolid.


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    It is quite possible. Saami, as i know, have 25-30% I.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    It is quite possible. Saami, as i know, have 25-30% I.
    But the Saamis (and Finns) have mostly I1.

    My bet is on I2a-Din introgressing into the Magyars as they migrated through Eastern Europe or early after their arrival in the Carpathian Basin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    It is quite possible. Saami, as i know, have 25-30% I.
    The only members of haplogroup I among the Saami individuals whose Y-DNA has been analyzed by Hallast et al. 2014 belong to haplogroup I1:

    saa-5, saa-9, saa-10: These three individuals are closely related to one another in the paternal line. Their branch appears to stem from very close to the common root of all extant I1.

    saa-14: This individual's Y-DNA appears to form a basal branch of a subclade of I1 to which CEU-NA11829, nor-2, nor-21, and den-152 belong.

    saa-11, saa-19, saa-20: These three individuals are closely related to one another in the paternal line. They share a subclade of I1 with den-176, CEU-NA06994, and ork-573.

    Therefore, I predict that the Y-DNA of most Saami members of haplogroup I probably belongs to I1-M253 and has sprung from the same source that has produced all other extant branches of that haplogroup.

    As for Hungarians, they also have some members of haplogroup I1-M253. Karmin et al. 2015 have placed the Y-DNA of Hungarian 16901 in I-M507, a subclade of I1a2a1a1a-Z140 parallel to I1a2a1a1a2-CTS4963 (found in Tuscan NA20511 and Dutch F19) and I-B263 (found in Australian 35226). Hallast et al. 2014 have placed the Y-DNA of hun-27 and hun-37 within the major radiation of haplogroup I1-M253, but not particularly closely related to each other nor to any of the other sampled members of I1-M253.

    Hun-1 and hun-9 of Hallast et al. 2014 belong to I2a1b2a1a-CTS5966 alongside five Serbians, five Greeks, and a Frisian. Karmin et al. 2015 have found an I-B61 subclade of I2a1b2-L621 only in Chuvash 13764. The Chuvash speak a basal Turkic language that exhibits some similarities with some peculiar Hungarian words of Turkic origin or affinity. Karmin et al. 2015 also have found an I2a1b2-L621 > I-B57 > I-B59 subclade in Vepsa 17632. In any case, there is evidence in the literature for the presence of members of "I2a-Din" among various Baltic-, Uralic-, Turkic-, Greek-, or Germanic-speaking populations besides the typical Slavic-speaking members of that clade. However, the territory principally inhabited by Slavic-speaking ethnic groups is located centrally relative to every one of those other linguistic groups among which members of "I2a-Din" have been found.

    Hallast et al. 2014 also have analyzed the Y-DNA of hun-5, a Hungarian who belongs to haplogroup I2c1a1-S22170. Members of I2c1-PF6915 also have been found in Italy, the UK, Germany, Ukraine, and Armenia according to ISOGG.

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    So far we have only four Early Medieval samples of I2a-Din from Hungary, Poland and Russia:

    Hungary, Karos-Eperjesszög [12], 900-950 AD
    Hungary, Karos-Eperjesszög [17], 900-950 AD
    Poland, Niemcza [13], 900-1000 AD
    Russia, Sunghir [6], 1040-1220 AD

    What is interesting, Niemcza samples are autosomally Finnic-shifted...

    "Niemcza" also means "settlement of mute people" (people who don't speak our language).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angantyr View Post
    But the Saamis (and Finns) have mostly I1.

    My bet is on I2a-Din introgressing into the Magyars as they migrated through Eastern Europe or early after their arrival in the Carpathian Basin.
    That seems the most likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angantyr View Post
    My bet is on I2a-Din introgressing into the Magyars as they migrated through Eastern Europe or early after their arrival in the Carpathian Basin.
    Also think so.
    But anyway it is quite an interesting question - why do modern Hungarians have so few finno-ugoric Y-happlogroups. First of all - why so few N's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angantyr View Post
    My bet is on I2a-Din introgressing into the Magyars as they migrated through Eastern Europe or early after their arrival in the Carpathian Basin.
    No need to bet. There is a Byzantine source form 10th century which confirms the possibility of such a scenario:

    The rest of the Croats stayed over against Francia, and are now called Belocroats, that is, White Croats, and have their own prince; they are subject to Otto, the great king of Francia, or Saxony, and are unbaptized, and intermarry and are friendly with the Turks [Hungarians].
    Source: De Administrando Imperio, Chapter 30, "Story of the Province of Dalmatia"

    Early Hungarians mixed with the locals (White Croats) somewhere around Carpathians.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 02-17-2018 at 01:03 PM.

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