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Thread: Was I2a-Din originally Finno-Ugric (not Slavic)?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Magyar from Karos-Eperjesszög III [12] dated to 900-950 AD - Y haplogroup I2a-Din, mt haplogroup A12,

    Magyar from Karos-Eperjesszög III [17] dated to 900-950 AD - Y haplogroup I2a-Din, mt haplogroup H6a1a.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonomyro View Post
    No need to bet. There is a Byzantine source form 10th century which confirms the possibility of such a scenario:

    Source: De Administrando Imperio, Chapter 30, "Story of the Province of Dalmatia"

    Early Hungarians mixed with the locals (White Croats) somewhere around Carpathians.
    Both the time frame and geography coincide with the source. Here is the map (in the article):

    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karos

    Karos is not far from the Ukrainian city of Uzhhorod (former Ungvar):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungv%C3%A1r

    The text is from the article:

    The best known of the first city founders are early Slavs. One of their tribes – White Croats – settled the area of the modern Uzhhorod in the second half of the first millennium AD. During the 9th century a fortified castle changed into a fortified early feudal town-settlement, which became the centre of a new Slavonic principality, at the head of which was a mythical prince Laborets, who was vassal of Great Moravia. Great Moravia, according to historians and experts did not extend as far east as Uzhgorod, in fact it was west of what is now the City of Bratislava, Slovakia
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 02-17-2018 at 01:26 PM.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So far we have only four Early Medieval samples of I2a-Din from Hungary, Poland and Russia:

    Hungary, Karos-Eperjesszög [12], 900-950 AD
    Hungary, Karos-Eperjesszög [17], 900-950 AD
    Poland, Niemcza [13], 900-1000 AD
    Russia, Sunghir [6], 1040-1220 AD

    What is interesting, Niemcza samples are autosomally Finnic-shifted...

    "Niemcza" also means "settlement of mute people" (people who don't speak our language).

    Sunghir is 180km east of Moscow near city of Vladimir. There was a fortification near Vladimir (against Volga Bulgars?). First, the city of Vladimir was part of Rostov principality (not be confused with Rostov-on-Don which is relatively young city).

    Extract from Hypatian Codex https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatian_Codex

    Approximate translation

    In the summer of 6498 (990) [AD]
    Volodimer (Vladimir Monomakh) will go to the land of Sloveni and the country of Zalessk, in the Suzdal region and Rostov, and establish a city over the river Klyazma, and name the city after his first name Volodymyr, and build the church of the Most Holy Theotokos : commanded people to baptise everywhere and build churches , and give them first bishop Theodore.



    The individual living in Sunghir site between 1040-1220 AD could be an eastern Slav. The same can be said about individuals living on territories of present day Poland and Hungary in the 10th century AD. They could be a western and Panonian Slavs.

    Besides, Hungarians speak Ugric of the Finno-Ugric linguistic family. Some linguists contested linguistic relations of Finnic and Ugric languages. The similarities between Finnic and Ugric could be on par with Indo-European and Indo-Aryan. I am only guessing. The other two groups of people that speak Ugric are Khanty and Mansi. Mansi have plenty of N1b in their gene pool.
    Last edited by Volat; 02-17-2018 at 01:44 PM.

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    Re Post # 12
    "
    In the summer of 6498 (990) [AD]
    Volodimer (Vladimir Monomakh) will go to the land of Sloveni and the country of Zalessk, in the Suzdal region and Rostov, and establish a city over the river Klyazma, and name the city after his first name Volodymyr, and build the church of the Most Holy Theotokos : commanded people to baptise everywhere and build churches , and give them first bishop Theodore. "

    This is not a citation from the Hypatian Codex. Probably from some much later source, which confused Volodymyr the Great (980-1015)with Volodymyr Monomakh (1113-1125). It is the latter who founded the city of Volodymyr (now Vladimir) on the Klyazma in Meryaland at the beginning of the 12th c. He was then Prince of Pereyaslav near Kyiv in Rus' proper, and his northern holdings included the territories of "Zalissia" (the subsequent Suzdalia, independent from ca. 1136).
    Rest of the post seems OK to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    Re Post # 12
    "
    In the summer of 6498 (990) [AD]
    Volodimer (Vladimir Monomakh) will go to the land of Sloveni and the country of Zalessk, in the Suzdal region and Rostov, and establish a city over the river Klyazma, and name the city after his first name Volodymyr, and build the church of the Most Holy Theotokos : commanded people to baptise everywhere and build churches , and give them first bishop Theodore. "

    This is not a citation from the Hypatian Codex. Probably from some much later source, which confused Volodymyr the Great (980-1015)with Volodymyr Monomakh (1113-1125). It is the latter who founded the city of Volodymyr (now Vladimir) on the Klyazma in Meryaland at the beginning of the 12th c. He was then Prince of Pereyaslav near Kyiv in Rus' proper, and his northern holdings included the territories of "Zalissia" (the subsequent Suzdalia, independent from ca. 1136).
    Rest of the post seems OK to me.
    Okay! Thanks for correction. But nearby Suzdal city and city of Vladimir on Klyazma were settled by Slavs in 1040-1220 AD . The period during which Sunghir individual having I2a-Din marker lived (1040-1220). Sunghir individual could be a Slav rather than Ugric or Volgaic Finn. AFAIK the region was settled by Merja - Volgaic Finns possibly related to ancestors of modern day Mari people rather than Ugric speaking people.
    Last edited by Volat; 02-17-2018 at 02:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Okay! Thanks for correction. But nearby Suzdal city and city of Vladimir on Klyazma were settled by Slavs in 1040-1220 AD . The period during which Sunghir individual having I2a-Din marker lived (1040-1220). Sunghir individual could be a Slav rather than Ugric or Volgaic Finn. AFAIK the region was settled by Merja - Volgaic Finns possibly related to ancestors of modern day Mari people rather than Ugric speaking people.
    BTW We know that both Rostov (Hrossthiolf) and Suzdal (Syrgisdalir) were originally Varangian colonies. Later on as you say Slavs also arrived. And the basic Merya population was also around. I2a-Din Surghir was almost certainly Slavic. Maybe the Scandinavian contribution will also eventually be found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Poland, Niemcza [13], 900-1000 AD
    Niemcza in 10th century:

    In early times Niemcza became an important base in Bohemias fight for Silesia. After 990 it was seized by Poland and withstood both emperor Henry II. in 1017 and a major offensive of Bohemia in 1093.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niemcza

    Ethnomyms and tribal names in te area in 10th century:

    The Prague Charter from 1086 AD (actually with data from 973) mentions on the Northeastern frontier of the Prague diocese "Psouane, Chrouati et altera Chrowati, Zlasane...", "...Trebovyane, Poborane, and Dedositze"
    Zlasamne = Silesians?
    Chrouati et altera Chrowati = Croats and other Croats

    Croat ethnonym appears again in the vicinity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    BTW We know that both Rostov (Hrossthiolf) and Suzdal (Syrgisdalir) were originally Varangian colonies. Later on as you say Slavs also arrived. And the basic Merya population was also around. I2a-Din Surghir was almost certainly Slavic. Maybe the Scandinavian contribution will also eventually be found.
    In terms of autosomal DNA, Sunghir6 actually is a bit more North-Western than typical modern Russians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Okay! Thanks for correction. But nearby Suzdal city and city of Vladimir on Klyazma were settled by Slavs in 1040-1220 AD . The period during which Sunghir individual having I2a-Din marker lived (1040-1220). Sunghir individual could be a Slav rather than Ugric or Volgaic Finn. AFAIK the region was settled by Merja - Volgaic Finns possibly related to ancestors of modern day Mari people rather than Ugric speaking people.
    A postscript based on an August 2015 interview with Ukrainian archaeologist Mykhajlo Filipchuk (a specialist on Galician mediaeval antiquities esp. of the "Great Croatian period". Among many interesting things he had this to say:

    "похід Володимира Великого [G: in 992-993 CE . Mentioned in both the Hypatian and Laurentian Codexes as "the Croatian War"] був нищівним для Галичини, тобто для тодішньої Великої Хорватії (нехрещеної). Населення не хотіло підкоритися Київському князю, оскільки тут було уже своє протодержавне об’єднання – Велика Хорватія, яке перебувало у процесі становлення держави, як колись було у постгомерівській Греції, коли міста-поліси формували Афінський і Пелопоннеський союзи. В той час у нас усе групувалося довкола Галича і це зафіксовано в східних, візантійських та західних писемних джерелах. «Прихід» Володимира в Галичину цілковито руйнує наявну тут територіально-адміністративну інфраструктуру, основою якої були міста-держави, тобто поліси.
    Приєднавши ці землі, він прислав свій наглядацький контингент, який збирав податки і т.п. Поховальні пам’ятки в Майдані Липному, в Пліснеську, в Викторові коло Галича, поблизу Збаража і в інших місцях свідчать що це були скандинави, які після себе залишили поховання під курганами. Частину населення Володимир Великий насильно переселив з цих земель у Володимир-Суздальську землю. До речі, в 2008 році на конференції у Переяслав-Хмельницькому, московський історик, професор Константин Авєрянов сказав, що Володимир-Суздальську землю «в середине ХІ века где-то с Правобережной Украины пребывает большая группа переселенцев. Это все зависимые княжие села». Тобто, це кріпаки, яких насильно, безцеремонно як татаро-монголи, а може і гірше, виселили і вони там після себе залишили оці всі назви.
    Отже, слід думати, що ми маємо справу з величезним переселенням частини наших пращурів у Володимир-Суздальську землю. Похід Володимира на хорватів – це був страшний катаклізм.

    If Averyanov is correct, then the settlement of enserfed ex-"Great Croatians" would have been continued up to the reign of Yaroslav the Wise (died 1054) (whose Scandinavian contacts are also well documented /his wife was Swedish BTW/ and whose resettlement activities are noted in a couple of contexts of the Tale of Bygone Years. If the Sunghir I2a-Din's earlier burial date (from ca. 1040) is possible then it is conceivable he might have been one of those enserfed migrants from ex "Great Croatia" into Suzdalian territory. Nothing conclusive, but certainly worth noting as a hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    A postscript based on an August 2015 interview with Ukrainian archaeologist Mykhajlo Filipchuk (a specialist on Galician mediaeval antiquities esp. of the "Great Croatian period". Among many interesting things he had this to say:

    "похід Володимира Великого [G: in 992-993 CE . Mentioned in both the Hypatian and Laurentian Codexes as "the Croatian War"] був нищівним для Галичини, тобто для тодішньої Великої Хорватії (нехрещеної). Населення не хотіло підкоритися Київському князю, оскільки тут було уже своє протодержавне об’єднання – Велика Хорватія, яке перебувало у процесі становлення держави, як колись було у постгомерівській Греції, коли міста-поліси формували Афінський і Пелопоннеський союзи. В той час у нас усе групувалося довкола Галича і це зафіксовано в східних, візантійських та західних писемних джерелах. «Прихід» Володимира в Галичину цілковито руйнує наявну тут територіально-адміністративну інфраструктуру, основою якої були міста-держави, тобто поліси.
    Приєднавши ці землі, він прислав свій наглядацький контингент, який збирав податки і т.п. Поховальні пам’ятки в Майдані Липному, в Пліснеську, в Викторові коло Галича, поблизу Збаража і в інших місцях свідчать що це були скандинави, які після себе залишили поховання під курганами. Частину населення Володимир Великий насильно переселив з цих земель у Володимир-Суздальську землю. До речі, в 2008 році на конференції у Переяслав-Хмельницькому, московський історик, професор Константин Авєрянов сказав, що Володимир-Суздальську землю «в середине ХІ века где-то с Правобережной Украины пребывает большая группа переселенцев. Это все зависимые княжие села». Тобто, це кріпаки, яких насильно, безцеремонно як татаро-монголи, а може і гірше, виселили і вони там після себе залишили оці всі назви.
    Отже, слід думати, що ми маємо справу з величезним переселенням частини наших пращурів у Володимир-Суздальську землю. Похід Володимира на хорватів – це був страшний катаклізм.

    If Averyanov is correct, then the settlement of enserfed ex-"Great Croatians" would have been continued up to the reign of Yaroslav the Wise (died 1054) (whose Scandinavian contacts are also well documented /his wife was Swedish BTW/ and whose resettlement activities are noted in a couple of contexts of the Tale of Bygone Years. If the Sunghir I2a-Din's earlier burial date (from ca. 1040) is possible then it is conceivable he might have been one of those enserfed migrants from ex "Great Croatia" into Suzdalian territory. Nothing conclusive, but certainly worth noting as a hypothesis.
    This is a possibility if the authors of early sources and Russian historian is correct about the settlement of Vladimir-Suzdal land by enserfed Slavs living around Halich.

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