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Thread: Was I2a-Din originally Finno-Ugric (not Slavic)?

  1. #21
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    Yaroslav's second wife was Swedish princess Ingegerd Olofsdotter. Their daughter Anne of Kyiv became queen consort of France, whom Putin called Anne of Russia not long ago. Funny! But that's another story.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    This is a possibility if the authors of early sources and Russian historian is correct about the settlement of Vladimir-Suzdal land by enserfed Slavs living around Halich.
    Indeed. there are a lot of "ifs" involved. Averyanov's "right bank Ukraine" would refer to quite a large territory, not just Galicia (Halychyna) or the smaller territory around the later Halych. Some backing for Filipchuk's hypothesis comes from the following archaeological observation, which indicates serious depopulation of Galician "Great Croatia" in the first half of the 11th century:

    "якщо в кінці Х століття в українському Прикарпатті функціонувало щонайменше 86 міст (разом з культовими центрами) і понад 500 селищ (усе це до тепер знайдено, але очевидно їх було більше), то в ХІ столітті в ми ледве нараховуємо до 40 населених пунктів. Похід Володимира на хорватів – це був страшний катаклізм."

    From the second half of the 11th c. the area was partly repopulated by migrants from the east, (including some Turkic steppe clans from the Pechenegs and Berendeis) blending in and assimilating with the survivors of the 993 campaign, and by the end of the century had recovered to the extent of being rich and populous enough to support its own princely dynasty.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angantyr View Post
    But the Saamis (and Finns) have mostly I1.

    My bet is on I2a-Din introgressing into the Magyars as they migrated through Eastern Europe or early after their arrival in the Carpathian Basin.
    1. The migration from the Ural to the Carpathian Basin took only 35 years.
    2. They where leaders (not commoners) buried with traditional funerals (partial horse burials).
    3.The guy (Y-I2a1b3a +mtDNA -A12) in grave 12.had tree symbolic skull scrapings, typical for Magyar Conquerors and Volga Bulgars.

    It's possible that I2a-"Din" is onogur.

    https://bonesdontlie.wordpress.com/2...on-in-hungary/

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...3th_century_AD
    Last edited by gravetti; 02-19-2018 at 01:10 PM.

  6. #24
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    A picture differing markedly from the other areas of the
    Carpathian Basin emerges in the Upper Tisza region. The
    cemeteries in this area have a conspicuously high number of
    male burials (accounting for up to fifty per cent of the buri-
    als) equipped with a wide array of weapons. Almost all the
    men were buried with their archery equipment; sabres and
    axes are also quite frequent. Their real wealth, however, is
    indicated by their insignia of rank: sabretaches ornamented
    with mounts or metal plaques, belt sets, sabres covered with
    silver or gold plaques, bow cases fitted with mounts and lav-
    ishly ornamented horse harness. These burials undoubtedly
    represent the graves of the highest-ranking leaders of the
    10th century Hungarians (Karos and Rakamaz; Fig. 34).

    http://www.regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_011.pdf

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  8. #25
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    Results of genome-wide and IBD analyses clearly show Sunghir individual was genetically similar to eastern Slavs, Poles and Lithuanians : http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=29377

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  10. #26
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    I've heard somewhere that Sunghir6 is 10% contaminated with modern DNA.

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by George View Post
    A postscript based on an August 2015 interview with Ukrainian archaeologist Mykhajlo Filipchuk (a specialist on Galician mediaeval antiquities esp. of the "Great Croatian period". Among many interesting things he had this to say:

    "похід Володимира Великого [G: in 992-993 CE . Mentioned in both the Hypatian and Laurentian Codexes as "the Croatian War"] був нищівним для Галичини, тобто для тодішньої Великої Хорватії (нехрещеної). Населення не хотіло підкоритися Київському князю, оскільки тут було уже своє протодержавне об’єднання – Велика Хорватія, яке перебувало у процесі становлення держави, як колись було у постгомерівській Греції, коли міста-поліси формували Афінський і Пелопоннеський союзи. В той час у нас усе групувалося довкола Галича і це зафіксовано в східних, візантійських та західних писемних джерелах. «Прихід» Володимира в Галичину цілковито руйнує наявну тут територіально-адміністративну інфраструктуру, основою якої були міста-держави, тобто поліси.
    Приєднавши ці землі, він прислав свій наглядацький контингент, який збирав податки і т.п. Поховальні пам’ятки в Майдані Липному, в Пліснеську, в Викторові коло Галича, поблизу Збаража і в інших місцях свідчать що це були скандинави, які після себе залишили поховання під курганами. Частину населення Володимир Великий насильно переселив з цих земель у Володимир-Суздальську землю. До речі, в 2008 році на конференції у Переяслав-Хмельницькому, московський історик, професор Константин Авєрянов сказав, що Володимир-Суздальську землю «в середине ХІ века где-то с Правобережной Украины пребывает большая группа переселенцев. Это все зависимые княжие села». Тобто, це кріпаки, яких насильно, безцеремонно як татаро-монголи, а може і гірше, виселили і вони там після себе залишили оці всі назви.
    Отже, слід думати, що ми маємо справу з величезним переселенням частини наших пращурів у Володимир-Суздальську землю. Похід Володимира на хорватів – це був страшний катаклізм.

    If Averyanov is correct, then the settlement of enserfed ex-"Great Croatians" would have been continued up to the reign of Yaroslav the Wise (died 1054) (whose Scandinavian contacts are also well documented /his wife was Swedish BTW/ and whose resettlement activities are noted in a couple of contexts of the Tale of Bygone Years. If the Sunghir I2a-Din's earlier burial date (from ca. 1040) is possible then it is conceivable he might have been one of those enserfed migrants from ex "Great Croatia" into Suzdalian territory. Nothing conclusive, but certainly worth noting as a hypothesis.


    After author in the above mentioned article having done genome-wide, IBD and Y-DNA analyses he wrote in conclusion that Sunghir individual could be an immigrant from southern [south-western from what's today Ukraine) region of Rus.


    В связи с этим наиболее вероятной версией мне видится происхождение “сунгирца” от переселенцев из Южной Руси, либо же он сам был таким переселенцем. Конечно, вопрос о том, насколько современные выборки могут представлять древнее население, остается открытым, и анализ древней ДНК еще способен преподнести нам сюрпризы. Как мы знаем, хотя монгольское нашествие и оставило тяжелые последствия, значимого внешнего влияния на славянский генофонд оно не оказало. Однако оно могло стимулировать миграции населения внутри восточнославянского ареала. Тем не менее, считается, что эти перемещения в первую очередь происходили из южнорусских княжеств, то есть они должны были повлиять на генофонд северо-восточных русских в сторону увеличения сходства с “сунгирцем”, а не уменьшения.

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  13. #28
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    My Great Grandfather "Sunghir 6"

    Sunghir6 (1040-1220 AD) - GEDmatch kit T005824

    I2a1b2a1a1a1a3-A16681.

    Eurogenes K13:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 46.99
    2 North_Atlantic 27.29
    3 West_Med 12.79
    4 East_Med 5.08
    5 West_Asian 4.98
    6 Siberian 1.22
    7 Amerindian 1.17
    8 Oceanian 0.46
    9 Red_Sea 0.01
    10 Northeast_African 0.01

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Ukrainian 3.62
    2 Polish 4.33
    3 Estonian_Polish 4.6
    4 Russian_Smolensk 4.72
    5 Southwest_Russian 4.9
    6 Ukrainian_Lviv 5.39
    7 Belorussian 5.9
    8 Ukrainian_Belgorod 5.92
    9 South_Polish 5.99
    10 Kargopol_Russian 8.67
    11 Lithuanian 8.82
    12 Estonian 9.47
    13 Croatian 10.93
    14 Erzya 11.03
    15 Finnish 12.01
    16 East_Finnish 12.5
    17 Southwest_Finnish 12.82
    18 Moldavian 13.9
    19 Hungarian 15.11
    20 East_German 16.04

    Me:

    Eurogenes K13

    Admix Results (sorted):

    1 Baltic 45.32
    2 North_Atlantic 26.72
    3 West_Med 10.53
    4 East_Med 10.4
    5 West_Asian 2.66
    6 Siberian 1.79
    7 Sub-Saharan 0.72
    8 Amerindian 0.69
    9 South_Asian 0.61
    10 Oceanian 0.35
    11 Red_Sea 0.22

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Ukrainian 5.66
    2 Southwest_Russian 5.79
    3 Estonian_Polish 6.63
    4 South_Polish 6.8
    5 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.97
    6 Belorussian 7.1
    7 Polish 7.24
    8 Russian_Smolensk 7.42
    9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 7.5
    10 Croatian 10.27
    11 Kargopol_Russian 10.54
    12 Lithuanian 11.48
    13 Estonian 11.71
    14 Erzya 12.4
    15 Moldavian 12.98
    16 Finnish 13.08
    17 East_Finnish 13.51
    18 Southwest_Finnish 13.75
    19 Hungarian 13.86
    20 East_German 16.07

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  15. #29
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    Sunghir6 (1040-1220 AD) - GEDmatch kit T005824

    I2a1b2a1a1a1a3-A16681.

    Eurogenes K36:

    Population

    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque 1.69
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 8.12
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan 7.02
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 23.49
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 22.27
    Fennoscandian 6.56
    French 8.82
    Iberian 0.91
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian -
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 7.48
    North_Caucasian 0.49
    North_Sea 9.40
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural 0.86
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med 2.89

    Me:

    Population

    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque 0.62
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 10.79
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan 5.39
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 26.62
    East_Med 0.83
    Eastern_Euro 16.40
    Fennoscandian 11.59
    French 6.06
    Iberian 7.38
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 1.13
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 2.31
    North_Caucasian 3.47
    North_Sea 7.29
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy 0.09
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African 0.05
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med -

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  17. #30
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    Check out that high East Balkan 7.02%

    I2 people has not come from Siberia. User @Tomenable is only person who preaches these theory.

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