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Thread: Alphabet Soup -- Regional Languages Discussion.

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpb View Post
    Well, I admittedly am not familiar with Tibetan, but the language doesnít at all seem similar to Kashmiri in the videos Iíve been watching or the websites Iíve used thus far. While there was definitely a genetic impact as well as religious and architectural, Iím not sure that translated linguistically.

    I think, unsurprisingly, other dardic languages are closest. Nuristani, as I mentioned above, was also similar sounding.
    Well thats very true it did not have any linguistic effect, rather the opposite happened.

    https://www.degruyter.com/document/d...9-173-409/html

    The Northwestern fringe of the Tibetan-speaking area, now forming a part of the Jammu and Kashmir state of India and of Pakistani-controlled Northern Areas, was in the past an area of intensive ethnic and language contact. This contact resulted in the linguistic assimilation of the local pre-Tibetan population by the Tibetans. More than a century ago it was hypothesized that this pre-Tibetan population may have spoken a certain Dardic language. The article attempts to check this hypothesis through the etymological analysis of the vocabulary of Northwestern Tibetan dialects. The results of this analysis suggest the existence of a significant Indo-Iranian, probably Dardic, lexical stratum, as well as of numerous lexemes borrowed from some early form of Burushaski.

    This would make sense, 2 of the Balti people I posted were quite West Eurasian, so the ancestors of these kind of people , probably is the reason for the significant substratum in Tibetan speaking populations in the area.

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  3. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Fair enough. To guess or appreciate the substrate, especially when it has been minimal, especially with much perso-arabic imports, its not simple or easy. Over centuries, it is a given that a lot of older lexicon went out of use. But the continuum that is this Himalayan belt, you find some characteristics, which aren't Indo-Aryan, nor even Dravidian, common to languages from Kashmiri to Garhwali and Nepali, the copular verb 'chha' for instance. I once had an exchange with a prominent linguist, much hated by the nationalists in India, where I complained about the still-continuing trend in South Asian linguistics to treat languages at the peripheries as being either IE, Dravidian, Tibeto-Burman, Austric etc categories, especially with a 19th century romantic indology's underpinning. He argued that he has been trying to put the focus on this very problem, of probing and digging into obscured sources of import into ancient texts, such as the Rig Veda, where the loanwords and even influences would have come from sources we no longer imagine. Indo-Aryan itself is a broad and often diverse set of categories, depending upon where you located and who is it that you have exchanges with.
    Your argument is fair but the "Chha/ Chhu/Chhe" etc verbs are present in other IA languages as well; Maithili uses 'Chhi', Gujarati uses "Chhe" and perhaps many others use similar verbs.
    Last edited by kaazi; 06-23-2021 at 05:01 PM. Reason: uses> use

  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaazi View Post
    Your argument is fair but the "Chha/ Chhu/Chhe" etc verbs are present in other IA languages as well; Maithili uses 'Chhi', Gujarati uses "Chhe" and perhaps many others uses similar verbs.
    Yeah, but it is more prevalent, common in this Himalayan belt, stretching all the way up to further east, in the Terai. And it does not look like if it is Dravidian or IE.

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  6. #184
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    @Rahuls77 This isnt totally helpful but gives brief idea of how IA Khas Nepali languages are compared to Tibeto-Burmese languages. You can compare other Himalayan IA languages to them.


    Dotyali Khas Nepali dialect (closest to Kumauni of India)


    Midwestern native Khas Nepali dialect from Jumla Karnali


    Western Khas Nepali dialect (Arghakhanchi-Gulmi)


    Central-Eastern Khas Nepali dialect (Rasuwa)


    Standard Nepali pronunciation. Uses the formal and standardized language of Gorkhali establishment who expanded eastwards; the standardized form of Eastern-Central Nepali dialect.




    Meanwhile Tibeto-Burmese languages
    Tibetan.


    Magar Dhut


    Tamang
    Last edited by kaazi; 06-23-2021 at 06:37 PM.

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  8. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Lately, and I mean in the past several centuries, going back to the period which saw growth of Hinduism in the valley, the influence of the Tibetan languages has been non-existent. And with the advent of Hinduism from the South and Islam from the West, the language itself would have undergone a massive shift. But the links of the Kashmiri language with other easterly himalayan languages are still discernible, sharing features and characteristics that go beyond indo-aryan.
    "Alexander Cunningham, remained always convinced that three conflicting forces had been at work in medieval India, the Brahmans, the Buddhists, and the Muslims."
    "The presence and influence of the theistic groups in Gandhāran society are obfuscated by the imposing remains and overwhelming iconographic output of the Buddhists, made possible by royal patronage and the support of the trading bourgeoisie. For the Bhāgavatas, we go back as early as the images of Kṛṣṇa and Saṃkarṣana on the drachm minted by Agathocles of Bactria, who also ruled on Gandhāra and Taxila, and to the Indo-Greek king of Taxila Antialkidas, either a Bhāgavata himself or close to Bhāgavata circles. Gandhāran images of Viṣṇu datable to the second or third century are rare, but a seal of the fourth-fifth century AD executed according to the more Hellenised tendency of Gandhāran art shows a four-armed Viṣṇu to whom a ruler in Central-Asian dress and half his size pays homage. For its nature and quality, it is a product of a princely court, and is revealing of the fortunes of Bhāgavatism at the level of the political ťlite and of patronage. The latter did not necessarily imply the building of monumental religious structures but could be addressed to the improvement of the agrarian infrastructures (canals, tanks, etc.) and to rituals."
    There was also "favour of a name that identifies the king as a devout bhakta, pointing to a major involvement of the court in the support of the theistic movements."
    "Oešo was particularly popular with Vima Kadphises, who declares himself a devotee of
    Sarvalokeśvara, and with Vāsudeva I,"
    But its later in Hephthalite time period when we see observe a decline in Buddhism in Gandhara:
    "We have a clue from the report of Huisheng, who in AD 519 reached Uḍḍiyāna and Gandhāra through the usual Karakorum route as a member of a small group of envoys in search of sūtras led by Song Yun. The king of Gandhāra received them very rudely. Huisheng says:
    All the people in the kingdom are Brahmins and they like to read the sūtras. But the king liked killing and was not a follower of the Law of the Buddha and had inflicted war on the territory of Jibin. The king received the imperial letter while seated, in a rude manner and without (keeping) the etiquette. He sent the envoys off to a monastery but offered very little.
    This shows that although the ťlite was still largely Buddhist (the ‘Brahmins’ mentioned in the text are high-caste, learned Buddhists), the king had sided with the theistic Brahmans."
    This rise of Gandhāran Brahman elite lead an eventual expansion into other territories. Including Kashmir and parts of Eastern Afghanistan.
    "not all the local rulers of Gandhāra were the like of the king who received Song Yun and Huisheng in AD 519. Unsympathetic attitudes may have not yet turned into warred hostility against the Buddhist institutions in every corner of the region, but the policy followed by Mihirakula, the king who was in power from ca. 513 to 542 AD, is an important clue for understanding what was taking place.
    The Rājataraṅgiṇī seems to preserve two distinct traditions regarding Mihirakula—the first, that of a ferocious king whose inhuman acts Kalhaṇa even refuses to narrate, the second, that of an oikistes who established Mihirapura and of a devout king who founded the Sivaite temple of Mihireśvara in Srinagar. He would have also favoured the import of Gandhāran Brahmans into Kashmir, where he established for them one thousand agrahāras, i.e royal donations of land. If Kalhaṇa is dependable, we must assume that Gandhāra was already deeply brahmanised for allowing newly formed Brahman families to move and settle in new territories. As Mihirakula appears to have been a Sivaite also from his coins, and as he says of himself in the Gwalior inscription to be incessantly engaged in the worship of Paśupati,

    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/39283136.pdf
    Last edited by Kapisa; 06-24-2021 at 03:49 AM.
     

    [ { "distance": "1.69",
    "sample": "Kapisa-Dad (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 99.2,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.4,
    "Ju hoan": 0.4,},

    { "distance": "1.61",
    "sample": "Kapisa (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 94.8,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.6,
    "Ju hoan": 0.6,
    "Gupta": 4 },

    { "distance": "2.38",
    "sample":"Kapisa-Mom (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 89.4,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 3.4,
    "Gupta": 7.2 } ]

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  10. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpb View Post
    I think they may have survived but the pronunciations changed a lot.

    HmÖIím sure thereís a Kashmiri pandit Pandit lol out there who probably can recite rig Vedic hymns! Would be interesting to hear.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BrX7EvBl...dium=copy_link
    ^this is more rustic Kashmiri. It sounds very different from

    https://youtu.be/omUIG1TQz0Y
    ^this, which is more standardized Kashmiri.

    The pronunciations, to me, are drastically different between the two.

    I will have to listen to more polish and Lithuanian and see if they sound similar! I think even over time, Kashmiri has absorbed more Hindi sounds and has become softer. Even listening to recitations of Lal ded or Habba Khatoon, one can tell the language has absorbed more Hindi and Urdu over time.
    Found this: Vedic Chants by Kashmiri Pandits:
    https://youtu.be/bUX6EeyJ_rw
     

    [ { "distance": "1.69",
    "sample": "Kapisa-Dad (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 99.2,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.4,
    "Ju hoan": 0.4,},

    { "distance": "1.61",
    "sample": "Kapisa (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 94.8,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.6,
    "Ju hoan": 0.6,
    "Gupta": 4 },

    { "distance": "2.38",
    "sample":"Kapisa-Mom (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 89.4,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 3.4,
    "Gupta": 7.2 } ]

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  12. #187
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    Right the best language is potwari.

    Sub tu Changi zubaan dunya vich ah.

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  14. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    Found this: Vedic Chants by Kashmiri Pandits:
    https://youtu.be/bUX6EeyJ_rw
    These guys sound like Smartas of Karnataka.

  15. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaazi View Post
    @Rahuls77 This isnt totally helpful but gives brief idea of how IA Khas Nepali languages are compared to Tibeto-Burmese languages. You can compare other Himalayan IA languages to them.


    Dotyali Khas Nepali dialect (closest to Kumauni of India)


    Midwestern native Khas Nepali dialect from Jumla Karnali


    Western Khas Nepali dialect (Arghakhanchi-Gulmi)


    Central-Eastern Khas Nepali dialect (Rasuwa)


    Standard Nepali pronunciation. Uses the formal and standardized language of Gorkhali establishment who expanded eastwards; the standardized form of Eastern-Central Nepali dialect.




    Meanwhile Tibeto-Burmese languages
    Tibetan.


    Magar Dhut


    Tamang
    What about the Newar language?

  16. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    What about the Newar language?
    Newari language



    It is a Bodish (Bhotiya) initiated Sino-Tibetan language with substantial Indo-Aryan substrate from Sanskrit, Maithili, brought by Lichhavi and Malla rulers from Bihar. The Indo-Aryan overlords from modern day Bihar dominated/ruled over the local Bodish/Bhotiya farmers from the Kathmandu valley but adopted the local farmers' Sino-Tibetan language. Genetically, Newars today show half Bihari Kshatriya-Bania-Chamar and half local Mongoloid profile.

    I can understand Punjabi or Gujarati before Newari.

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