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Thread: Alphabet Soup -- Regional Languages Discussion.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post

    These are the 4 regions of Karnataka

    1.Karavali - Coastal
    2.Malnadu - Western Ghats
    3.Northern Bayaluseeme - Krishna river and its tributaries - Districts: It covers Belgaum district, Ballari district, Bidar district, Bagalkot district, Bijapur district, Chitradurga district, Dharwad district, Gulbarga district and Raichur district.
    4.Southern Bayaluseeme - Kaveri river and its tributaries - Districts: Bangalore Urban district, Bangalore Rural district, Chamarajanagar district, Hassan district, Kolar district, Mandya district, Mysuru district, and Tumkur district.

    You mean Southern bayaluseeme and what exactly constitutes cradle of particular culture , in this case kannada culture - is it vocabulary? Southern bayaluseeme dialect of Kannada has more vocabulary than Northern bayaluseeme?

    Pride or promotion of language by the particular region inhabitants ? literature ?

    In case of folk arts, it has similar representation from all regions.
    Actually I am not sure about what I wrote characterising southern Bayalusime as a cradle of Kannada culture and all that at all. But I am sure I must have gotten the term cradle of culture and closely associated with Bayalusime and Kannada culture in one passage from somewhere because I personally cannot usually come up with such combinations of ideas lol.

    Anyway, I think, later on, I sort of rationalised it all into a neat belief system that involved one of the 2 first dynasties of Karnataka, the Ganga dynasty (and the significant amount of early history in the region before them already), as playing a major role in the cultural genesis of Karnataka. I have always seen how this thing probably would not have had much to do with the much earlier Pre-Kannada-Badaga separation from the Proto-South-Dravidian-I body. But I just wanted to sneakily push an agenda, I guess lol. Your post has shattered all the shaky foundations on which my earlier associations lay into bits.

    I was not at all talking about any issues of "high amount of vocabulary" vs. "low amount" etc. though. People usually tend to have folk conceptions about these things but I believe in linguistics the usual consideration is that all languages are sufficiently equipped to suit the needs of their speakers and there is really no high vs. low there. I believe this is not a result of some leftist ideological belief (though it may have been a motivator) invoking relativism and all that, but just not putting much emphasis on any differences in the number of vocabulary items between two different language groups, because, linguists know that languages themselves are super-malleable and if their speakers want them to, they can all acquire all the (A- (the difference in the vocabulary of language A vs. language amount of vocabulary in 1 single day (or a couple of days, or a week lol). They can do this by borrowing (like English, most Indo-Aryan languages, most Dravidian languages, etc.) or by translation (Sanskrit, Icelandic, French, Tamil, etc.) or by any other such means.

    Pride or promotion on the part of modern speakers also I did not talk about at all - I am aware of the fact that the Mysuru region folks are like the central coastal Andhra folks in terms of conscious self-pride and all though. But actually any similar thing occurring on the part of people of ancient regional divisions may be relevant, it seems to me, in that in the ancient days people may have had more chance at success to (often inadvertently) completely change the dialect of a neighbouring region if they had the self-pride and promoted their dialect sufficiently enough.

    Edit: Also, absolutely thank you very much for letting me know the different cultural regions of Karnataka. I am becoming increasingly neurotic by the day and shutting myself down to more and more new information. I will have to crowd-source knowledge from online for a lot more time, I believe.
    Last edited by anthroin; 03-07-2020 at 03:02 PM.

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     discreetmaverick (03-07-2020)

  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post

    Does that mean a Tulu or Tulu related like population was Tamilzed, then later Sanskritization created Malayalam?
    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    One way that this, if happened, could manifest itself as physical evidence, is by showing up as a detectable Tulu-like substratum in Malayalam. I am personally not aware of any suggestions by linguists to this effect but except for the The Dravidian Languages, I really know nothing in the field of Dravidian linguistics. Also, even if no detectable Tulu-like substratum can be found in Malayalam, it does not make the possibility of massive language shift by Pre-Tulu speakers into Pre-Malayalam non-existent - it's just that we would lose a good way to support/reject such an argument.

    Phylogenetically, Tulu and Tamil-Malayalam are the most diverged from each other within the South Dravidian-I subgroup. I don't know whether the northern direction or a northeastern/eastern direction (Palakkad gap thingy?) makes sense as a source for the large-scale Dravidian settlement of Kerala, but language-wise, Malayalis seem to be a thoroughly northeastern/eastern people originally.

    Edit: What I wrote above may look like saying that Malayalam arose from migrating easterners into Kerala. I did not intend this - it is quite likely that the main body of South Dravidian-I-speaking peoples dispersed into both Kerala and Tamil Nadu from the Nilgiri Hills areas (and ultimately from Karnataka or further north) at the same time after leaving out Pre-Tulu and Pre-Kannada-Badaga speakers in Karnataka, and causing language shifts to South Dravidian-I to happen in the case of several Nilgiri peoples. Tamil-Malayalam-speaking peoples must have spent a significant amount of time together in some fashion with Kodagu, Toda, Kota, Irula, Kurumba, etc.-speaking peoples because they all share a common stage in linguistic development.

    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    I took a basic look at the districts of southern Karnataka for the purpose of this and it is intriguing how the three districts Dakshina Kannada, Kodagu, and Mysuru, are neighbours, and they represent distribution of three different language sub-subgroups within the South Dravidian-I subgroup - Tulu, Kodava, and Kannada (I read that it is a commonly held belief in Karnataka that the Bayalusime region which Mysuru is a part of, is the cradle of Kannada culture) respectively. All the South Dravidian-I languages might have radiated in all directions away from just these four or five districts in southern Karnataka and northwestern Tamil Nadu indeed!

    Anyway, regarding the matter at hand, Kerala shares border with all the three districts above - South Canara, Coorg, and Mysore (from where the border with Tamil Nadu starts). Why could any hypothetical pre-Tamil-Malayalam Dravidian population not be Kodava-speaking/Toda-speaking/whatever as opposed to just the Tulu possibility? Are there any geographical features in the borders with those 3 districts that could have facilitated Tulu migration more compared to others?

    I personally believe the earliest Dravidian-speakers to Kerala might have simply been the Tamil-Malayalam-speaking peoples.
    Continuing here the earlier discussion as it might be more relevant here and for better continuity as well.

    Here is a map of Kodagu, Wayanad and Niligiri hills,
    Attachment 36851

    Payaswini also known by the name Chandragiri, is the largest river in Kasaragod district, state of Kerala, India.
    This river is considered as the traditional boundary between the Tulu Nadu and Malayalam regions of Kerala from the fourteenth century AD onwards; before that it was north of Kumbala.

    Kasaragod is part of Kerala, but region above Chandragiri river is Tulu speaking as far I know, geographically isn't moving along the coast more convenient than moving past the western ghat?
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 03-18-2020 at 10:20 AM.

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     parasar (03-18-2020)

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