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Thread: The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis.

  1. #1
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    The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis.

    The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis endevors to consolidate all known information regarding all regional and ethnic identifiers.


    Share your knowledge regarding a surname, or post a question about one.
    Any topic that has to do with a name that comes after a First (Given) name belongs in this thread.
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis
    What is this organisation and who runs in?
    One's homeland is not where you are born, but where all your attempts to escape, cease.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintage_sky View Post
    What is this organisation and who runs in?
    His lordship Khana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    In Bengal, "Pathan" literally has zero relevance. I have read of Pathans in British journals and such, but have never encountered one who identifies as Pathan. I have though, on one guy who said that one of their long time forefathers was a Pathan or such (belongs to a Zamindari family), but would never identify as such, but in the same perspective, you'll also find Bengali Muslims who claim local Hindu heritage like Kayastha, Rajbanghshi etc, more so than Pathans and such.

    The 'Pathan' moniker is mostly restricted to the Hindi Belt, where people do not have a strict ethnic identity, and identify with castes/communities. In their perspective, Pathan is a caste/community, and not really a strict ethnic group since the idea of an ethnic group to them is foreign.

    Only Gujarat outside the Hindi Belt would be an exception, but Gujarat is very "casteist" in nature, and like how Hindu groups form "caste Samaj" for their respective communities, the Muslims form "Jamat". While on the contrary, outside of Assam, Bengal is the least casteist place in the entire Indo-Aryan speaking subcontinent. Especially for Muslims, castes do not form any relevance. Marriage is mostly based on merit/income/love, rather than "khandan", that existed in the 19th/early 20th centuries. Hindus too, now hardly care, and the most common pairing is Kayastha-Brahmin.
    Bringing this discussion over to this thread ..

    I echo what Kulin has said above, I have never come across a Bengali that actually identifies with being Pathan ie Pashtun. They are Bengali in language, culture and looks and that is their only ethnic identity. That may be different outside of Bengal with other Muslims.

    What some people do claim, is ancestry from an alleged 'Pathan' - note, the term Pashtun is never used, and so their 'jaat' is usually referenced as Pathan khandan/bongsho/jaat. Much the same way as others may be Chowdhury, Sayyid, Taluqdar, Sheikh or various other titles which are far more common in Bangladesh than Khan. Traditional class based titles in Bengal were either landholding zamindari titles +/- ancestry affiliations. As well as occupational ones.

    It says more about the interplay of class and status in Bengali Muslim society than actual affiliation with modern day ethnic identities.

    So my maternal grandfather's title was Khan, but more relevant, his jaat is considered Pathan, and the story goes that there was a Pathan/Afghan ancestor that moved to the area. That association with Pathans doesn't actually go beyond that Bengali societal class/group. He and the rest of the family were Bengali through and through. The actual ancestor, it may all be made up - but to be honest, it's one of the family stories that spurred me into getting myself tested in the first place.

    On my paternal side, their title was Taluqdar, but previous to the British times, their title was also Khan. But there is no association with ancestry from Afghans or Mongols, with actually, most likely Hindu Kayastha ancestry somewhere. I think Razib Khan's is similar. I imagine, Khan was a hereditary title symbolising land ownership or something else.

    People are very aware that Khan is usually a 'title' distributed to many especially in the Mughal and British era. If anything, the association of Sayyids with actual ancestry from the Prophet is far more of a problematic issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis endevors to consolidate all known information regarding all regional and ethnic identifiers.


    Share your knowledge regarding a surname, or post a question about one.
    Any topic that has to do with a name that comes after a First (Given) name belongs in this thread.
    To get the Institute in gear!

    Caste: Babhan (Pali form of Brahman)
    Occupational caste: Bhumihar
    Clan: Eksariya (from village of Eksar, Saran, Bihar or one-head)
    Gotra: Parasar section of Vasisth

    Since all of the above are patrilineal, my Y: R1a1 L657 Y9 Y2351 Y2392 Y2393/FGC7405 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9/ Y2351 splits from the main Y7 line 2200BC, then my line splits from a line in Gujarat 1400BC, a Lankan line 1000BC, and a Andhra line (no TMRCA can be calculated).
    Y2351 has not been found outside South Asia.

    Maternal line is U2b2 but the maternal line can only be tracked by their paternal line - Jaji Babhan - so not of much use for historical purposes.
    Last edited by parasar; 02-17-2018 at 06:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    To get the Institute in gear!

    Caste: Babhan (Pali form of Brahman)
    Occupational caste: Bhumihar
    Clan: Eksariya (from village of Eksar, Saran, Bihar or one-head)
    Gotra: Parasar section of Vasisth

    Since all of the above are patrilineal, my Y: R1a1 L657 Y9 Y2351 Y2392 Y2393/FGC7405 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9/ Y2351 splits from the main Y7 line 2200BC, then my line splits from a line in Gujarat 1400BC, a Lankan line 1000BC, and a Andhra line (no TMRCA can be calculated).
    Y2351 has not been found outside South Asia.

    Maternal line is U2b2 but the maternal line can only be tracked by their paternal line - Jaji Babhan - so not of much use for historical purposes.
    Can you detail the hierarchy of how all this breaks down, for those unfamiliar with how each term relates to the other.

    My guesses:

    You are a Vasisth Brahmin of the Parasar section -- this identifies religious/traditional affiliation within Hinduism, I presume?
    Your clan is Eksariya -- this identifies your actual paternal biological descent.
    Your caste is Bhabhan -- this identifies hierarchy amongst Brahmins in general, or role?
    Your occupational caste is Bhumihar -- this identifies your family's traditional occupation?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So knowing clan is more important genetically?

    Secondly, is there a nice flowchart or something showing the whole Brahmin "tree" if you will?
    Is there a general list of what each caste means? ie. What does Bhumihar mean? What occupation?
    “Chahar chez est tohfay Multan, Gard-o- Garma, Gada-o- Goristan”.

    Four things are the gift of Multan: Dusty winds, hot seasons, beggars and graveyards.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    Bringing this discussion over to this thread ..

    I echo what Kulin has said above, I have never come across a Bengali that actually identifies with being Pathan ie Pashtun. They are Bengali in language, culture and looks and that is their only ethnic identity. That may be different outside of Bengal with other Muslims.

    What some people do claim, is ancestry from an alleged 'Pathan' - note, the term Pashtun is never used, and so their 'jaat' is usually referenced as Pathan khandan/bongsho/jaat. Much the same way as others may be Chowdhury, Sayyid, Taluqdar, Sheikh or various other titles which are far more common in Bangladesh than Khan. Traditional class based titles in Bengal were either landholding zamindari titles +/- ancestry affiliations. As well as occupational ones.

    It says more about the interplay of class and status in Bengali Muslim society than actual affiliation with modern day ethnic identities.

    So my maternal grandfather's title was Khan, but more relevant, his jaat is considered Pathan, and the story goes that there was a Pathan/Afghan ancestor that moved to the area. That association with Pathans doesn't actually go beyond that Bengali societal class/group. He and the rest of the family were Bengali through and through. The actual ancestor, it may all be made up - but to be honest, it's one of the family stories that spurred me into getting myself tested in the first place.

    On my paternal side, their title was Taluqdar, but previous to the British times, their title was also Khan. But there is no association with ancestry from Afghans or Mongols, with actually, most likely Hindu Kayastha ancestry somewhere. I think Razib Khan's is similar. I imagine, Khan was a hereditary title symbolising land ownership or something else.

    People are very aware that Khan is usually a 'title' distributed to many especially in the Mughal and British era. If anything, the association of Sayyids with actual ancestry from the Prophet is far more of a problematic issue.
    That's quite odd, here in the US, I come across few, once in a while. The ones with last name Khan and their affiiliations
    one such event:
    One bank teller girl to me: "what is your ethnicity?"
    I replied her back, then she goes:
    "My dad tells me that I look pathan as they come and it's in my blood(referring to weight, she was chubby), we are sisters".
    I didn't know if it was a compliment or otherwise, I am not fat but I guess, I have a bigger frame.

    I meet many uber drivers who say that they are Pathan and they have the ancestry. Maybe some are true, given that Pashtun empire flourished towards that direction as well, though by now it has watered down, genetically, culturally....

    Having said that, I know many 'Pashtuns' online and on various forums troll such claims and I feel like throwing up reading many comments. I personally believe that there must be some truth to those claims though save the fascination/hatred towards Pashtuns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    Can you detail the hierarchy of how all this breaks down, for those unfamiliar with how each term relates to the other.

    My guesses:

    You are a Vasisth Brahmin of the Parasar section -- this identifies religious/traditional affiliation within Hinduism, I presume?
    Your clan is Eksariya -- this identifies your actual paternal biological descent.
    Your caste is Bhabhan -- this identifies hierarchy amongst Brahmins in general, or role?
    Your occupational caste is Bhumihar -- this identifies your family's traditional occupation?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So knowing clan is more important genetically?

    Secondly, is there a nice flowchart or something showing the whole Brahmin "tree" if you will?
    Is there a general list of what each caste means? ie. What does Bhumihar mean? What occupation?
    You got it!

    Vasisth was one of the seven Vedic Rishis of yore (asuric Maitra-varuni). Cf. Avestan Vahist or excellent.
    Parasar was an illustrious personage in the Vasisth lineage. This chap killed many demons so his name is granted separate family (pravar) recognition.

    Clan comes from a historical person - Jargarnath Dixit who lived in Eksar village in the early sixteenth century (~1530).
    "The name of their clan is Eksariya ; of their gotra, Parasar"
    https://books.google.com/books?id=yr0OAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA40
    "who settled in the village of -Eksar in the early sixteenth century"
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Ck4jmD7H34UC&pg=PA59

    While we are of Brahman lineage we are not priests but alloidal agriculturists (thus bhumihar).

    Geneticaly clan should definitely be more cohesive than gotra which was spread all over northern India by at least 500bc. https://books.google.com/books?id=8Au_lIP1ZnQC&pg=PA190

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    Quote Originally Posted by surbakhunWeesste View Post
    That's quite odd, here in the US, I come across few, once in a while. The ones with last name Khan and their affiiliations
    one such event:
    One bank teller girl to me: "what is your ethnicity?"
    I replied her back, then she goes:
    "My dad tells me that I look pathan as they come and it's in my blood(referring to weight, she was chubby), we are sisters".
    I didn't know if it was a compliment or otherwise, I am not fat but I guess, I have a bigger frame.

    I meet many uber drivers who say that they are Pathan and they have the ancestry. Maybe some are true, given that Pashtun empire flourished towards that direction as well, though by now it has watered down, genetically, culturally....

    Having said that, I know many 'Pashtuns' online and on various forums troll such claims and I feel like throwing up reading many comments. I personally believe that there must be some truth to those claims though save the fascination/hatred towards Pashtuns.
    That's interesting... I didn't realise chubbiness was a pashtun quality

    Assuming that bank clerk was Bengali, I imagine it could simply be an interesting topic of conversation through association. i.e. alleged Afghani ancestor and she meets an Afghani - something easy to talk about. And people love to exaggerate coupled with the culturally inbuilt inferiority complex, that when south asians demonstrate what they perceive to be a non-indigenous quality, they attribute it to something else - comes easily to all of us to some degree.

    With other Bangladeshis, I can't conceive of her describing herself as Pathan / Afghani as opposed to Bengali. That's what I was referring to. It's more of a specific cultural / class distinctions within Bengali Muslim society. She fixates on this Pashtun ancestor when she meets an Afghani, much the way sayyids would on Arab ancestry, or maybe Brits with Norman ancestry. Or how someone might on how aristocratic their ancestors were, or the imam of some grand mosque. The opposite also being true, of proving how little ancestry they might have from any admixture type event. Sadly a reflection of society in itself, rather than specific to certain cultures. The trolling and angst people suffer from some of these claims is quite funny from the opposite end.

    Anyhow, the veracity of such claims is going to be near impossible to test unless there's clear evidence to the contrary. Talking about probable individual males settling and assimilating into a wider society any time between 1300 to 1600s. Way too long ago to pick up. Not enough definition on y-dna testing. My maternal grandfather came up as R1a1a. Could be anything. Local being more likely, but the counter claim not disproved either.

    I just find it interesting on a deeper level, that an event from so long ago can still shape cultural memories so strongly.
    Last edited by Reza; 02-17-2018 at 08:40 PM.

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  19. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by khanabadoshi View Post
    Can you detail the hierarchy of how all this breaks down, for those unfamiliar with how each term relates to the other.

    So knowing clan is more important genetically?

    Secondly, is there a nice flowchart or something showing the whole Brahmin "tree" if you will for all the Brahmins?
    Is there a general list of what each caste means? ie. What does Bhumihar mean? What occupation?
    There are no clans among South Indian Brahmins. Sub-castes (and further divisions) do exist.

    It would be incredibly difficult to draw a tree for just the Tamil Brahmins, so i doubt a nice flowchart exists.

    For example, Tamil Brahmins are split among three big divisions of "Iyers", "Iyengars"and "Sivacharyas (also called Gurukkals)". These are big divisions and stem from difference between the definition of God, Soul relationship between them and to the corporeal body ( so in essence separate religions that split off in their doctrine just like Christianity and Islam did from a Jewish source).
    THe Iyers are themselves split into various subcastes such as Vadama, Vathima, Brahatcharanam and Ashtasahasram.
    There is further subdivison among each group. For example, the Vadamas are split into Vadadesha Vadama, Chola desha vadama, Inji Vadama, Sabhya and Thummagunta dravida. Until recently, there groups married within each other as long as the couple did not share the same Gotra. However this intermarriage within the group has changed because there are fewer numbers due to nuclear families.

    There are subdivisions among the Iyengars as well and so on. You probabably get the idea....
    Paternal YDNA: G-P303+ -> G-Z30522+
    Paternal mtDNA: U7a3b1
    Maternal YDNA: R-Z2123+ -> R-YP526+
    Maternal mtDNA: C4a1 (T195C!)

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