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Thread: The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis.

  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Again, based on metethesis of r in dardic and Indo aryan languages



    is
    Sraman -> Dardic/western punjabi form
    Sarma -> Indo-Aryan
    Saman -> Pali ?
    Shraman is the Sanskrit form and Saman the Prakrit.
    No regular person would say Sraman even in the western most parts.
    Se eg. al-samaniya (pronounced assamaniya)
    The Frontier of al-Hind
    https://books.google.com/books?id=bCVyhH5VDjAC&pg=PA150

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    What all seem to forget is that K+s+hatri=Kshatri, K+hat+ri=Khatri, and hat=hut=shop, khat=earnings.
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Or the other way around. But related, no doubt.
    Khet - field - Kshetra - Kshatrapa - Satrapy
    Khetiyar/Khetiya - agriculturist land lord - Kshatriya - Kshatra - Shah

    The old Kshtariya clans either disappeared or like the Madras, Jains and such others became a mercantile class (the Parsuram myth).
    Satrap - Kshatrap - Kshatriya?
    From Middle English satrape, from Latin satrapēs (“governor”), from Ancient Greek σατράπης (satrápēs), from Old Median *xšaθrapāwan- (literally “kingdom-protector”)[1], which is cognate with Old Persian (xšaçapāvā);
    Satrap : a provincial governor in the ancient Persian empire.
    any subordinate or local ruler.
    Although the first large-scale use of satrapies, or provinces, originates from the inception of the Achaemenid Empire under Cyrus the Great, beginning at around 530 BCE, the provincial organization actually originated during the Median era from at least 648 BCE.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satrap

    Did median enter South Asia? if not, then concepts of satraps came with Darius the great, though Darius conquered Gandhara, however, their presence was likely limited to trade. Then, in South Asia, the Satraps come after the entry of greeks.

    Even in candragutta/chandragupta, one of meaning of gutta/gupta is governer

    According to some academics, the name Gupta is derived from Goptri, meaning 'protector' or 'governor'.[1]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta

    Rig Vedic Purusha Sukta mentions Rajana indicating Kings and does not provide any occupation details, while Chaturvarna uses Kshtriaya.

    Classical Sanskrit use of Kshatriya, a term borrowed or derived from Greek or Aramaic or Persian?

    Did Chaturvarna come into existence when manusmriti was written or some period after the entry of greek based on the concept and word origin?
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 01-16-2021 at 01:13 PM.

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  4. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    From what I understand, correct me where I am wrong,

    Change can happen when both are retroflex (L/D) or dentialveolar ( l/d)?

    As per Asokan Edict 13 and Manusmriti, choda mentioned is 'd', not pronounced as ChoDa? If Choda refers to Chola.

    or change from ChoDA -> ChoLA -> Chola ?



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_..._Rock_Edict_13




    Edit : Regarding L/R split



    Is Tuluva, pali/prakrit version for sanskrit Turuva?

    Like As in Ashokan inscritions - Kelalaputra -> Keralaputra



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulu_people
    Lol I am so sorry for not logging in for so long. I logged in recently to check any discussion about that new Basal Eurasian-rich sample and wanted to comment on these posts also - please don't mind me very much!

    Yes I suspect it would be difficult for changes like laterals (all kinds of l sounds) to rhotic flaps (common r sounds) and vice versa to occur if the laterals and flaps have different places of articulation (in this case retroflex vs denti-alveolar). If there were involved intermediate sound changes like L --> l and then from l --> r, then that seems plausible. It also seems less likely to have things like l --> r and then r --> R/D (alveolar to retroflex). If the lateral and flap both have same place of articulation, then it seems quite a common change, with history in Sanskrit at least in Indian scenario (l <--> r confusion in some words in Sanskrit).

    The Chola example illustrates the Dravidian split of Z into L in South Dravidian-I (except Tamil-Malayalam and a few other languages) and into D/R in South Dravidian-II: the Proto-Dravidian and also Tamil-Malayalam for it is cOZa where Z represents the retroflex approximant. In Kannada it is cOLa and in Telugu it is cOD-. We have a native Telugu dynasty of ancient rulers who were called rEnATi cODulu ('Chodas of Renadu'). This sound change is dated to some time in 1st century AD in the histories of Kannada and Telugu. Thus it is interesting that Ashoka who predated this sound change in Kannada and Telugu history also rendered the Proto-Dravidian Z as a D/R. Maybe Proto-Dravidian Z was consistently heard as D/R in Prakrits? Any further examples?

    Tulu is again unlikely to be derived from Turuva because the reconstructed phoneme for the lateral approximant in the word Tulu is retroflex while the r sound in Sanskrit word Turuva seems to be alveolar (L --> l --> r sounds more likely than r --> l --> L, so maybe Sanskrit borrowed the word as Turuva from the original Tulu word?).

    That Kelalaputa <--> Keralaputa connection again illustrates the confusion between l and r in Indo-Aryan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    If Kaula -> of Kula

    another one, Draupadi -> of Drupada ( Daughter of Drupada )

    Similarly, Kaurava -> Of Kurava or Kuru



    Maurya -> of Murya or Muru/Mura ?



    Is Dhundiraja's derivation is not accurate?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire

    As per the claim, Purana makes no mention of Mura, which is not correct, couple of them, including one for a King and a county.






    https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/mura
    Yes, those are all examples illustrating the vRddhi derivation phenomena in Sanskrit. The grammatical analysis in your source also seems correct - murA would on vRddhi give maureya while mura would give maurya.

    The claim of the source talks about Puranas while you seem to reference Mahabharata; maybe that's why the conflict between you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    Yes, those are all examples illustrating the vRddhi derivation phenomena in Sanskrit. The grammatical analysis in your source also seems correct - murA would on vRddhi give maureya while mura would give maurya.

    The claim of the source talks about Puranas while you seem to reference Mahabharata; maybe that's why the conflict between you?

    I was referring to the 3 and 4 in wisdomlib mentioned as from the puranic encyclopedia, but they seem to consider Mahabharata as part of Purana, I did not look where they are referring from.

    and is muru/mura/maurya or maureya cognate with Avestan Mōuru = Margiana as mentioned in Avestan geography?

    Wiktionary mentions

    ō - Latin Extended-A

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C5%8D

    Will Muru be a vriddhi derivation of Mōuru?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan_geography
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 01-16-2021 at 09:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    The Chola example illustrates the Dravidian split of Z into L in South Dravidian-I (except Tamil-Malayalam and a few other languages) and into D/R in South Dravidian-II: the Proto-Dravidian and also Tamil-Malayalam for it is cOZa where Z represents the retroflex approximant. In Kannada it is cOLa and in Telugu it is cOD-. We have a native Telugu dynasty of ancient rulers who were called rEnATi cODulu ('Chodas of Renadu'). This sound change is dated to some time in 1st century AD in the histories of Kannada and Telugu. Thus it is interesting that Ashoka who predated this sound change in Kannada and Telugu history also rendered the Proto-Dravidian Z as a D/R. Maybe Proto-Dravidian Z was consistently heard as D/R in Prakrits? Any further examples?
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Yes that Aramaic is very interesting.

    BŠNT 10 | ḤZY | PRYDRŠ MLK' | RQ DḤ'
    MH MṢD BRYWT KWRY
    MN ŠRYRYN DWDY MH 'BD RYQ QŠTN
    200 ZNH TMH TDMR ŠMH ZNH 'RH' KNPTY SHTY
    GNT' YTRY 120 TRT' TNH 100 'L' 80
    'M W'ŠW DYN'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadmur_District

    *
    "Records of the name "Tadmor" date from the early second millennium BC;[1] eighteenth century BC tablets from Mari written in cuneiform record the name as "Ta-ad-mi-ir", while Assyrian inscriptions of the eleventh century BC record it as "Ta-ad-mar".[2] Aramaic Palmyrene inscriptions themselves showed two variants of the name; TDMR (i.e. Tadmar) and TDMWR (i.e. Tadmor).[3][4] The etymology of the name is unclear; the standard interpretation, supported by Albert Schultens, connects it to the Semitic word for "date palm", tamar (תמר),[note 1][7][8] thus referring to the palm trees that surrounded the city.[8]

    The Greek name Παλμύρα (Latinized Palmyra) was first recorded by Pliny the Elder in the 1st century AD.[9] It was used throughout the Greco-Roman world.[7] It is generally believed that "Palmyra" derives from "Tadmor""
    Here connection seems to be date palm - tamar to palmyra,which is probably for all palms?

    Proto - Dravidan -> palmyra or toddy palm -> *tāẓ
    Proto - Dravidan -> tree -> mar

    https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~fsouth/fr...griculture.pdf

    Akkadian -> Taadmiir
    Assyrian -> Taadmar
    Aramiac -> Tadmar/Tadmor
    PD -> Taazmar

    Here, had Proto Dravidian retained Z over D?

    Considering the time period, Is it proto dravidan word or prakrit or sanskrit based?
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 01-17-2021 at 01:25 AM.

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    Guys, a bit of a tangent. but what do you guys think about this statement.

    Horace Arthur Rose wrote: "Many of the Jat tribes of the Punjab have customs which apparently point to non-Aryan origin. Suffice it to say that both Sir Alexander Cunningham and Colonel Tod agreed in considering the Jats to be of Indo-Scythian Stock. The former identified them with the Zanthi of Strabo (Greek Geographer of the ancient times) and the Jatii of Pliny (Roman writer) and Ptolemy (Another Greek Geographer of the ancient times); and held that they probably entered the Punjab from their home on the Oxus (in Central Asia) very shortly after the Meds or Mands (still exist as one of the Jat clans of the Punjab), who also were Indo-Scythians, and who moved into the Punjab about a century before Christ."[7]

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    any idea about the punjabi surname - Gutt.....the indivdual told me she was a multani..khatri, jatt or kamboj???

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    Quote Originally Posted by vishankar View Post
    any idea about the punjabi surname - Gutt.....the indivdual told me she was a multani..khatri, jatt or kamboj???
    Multani are Lubana. But Jattland claims Gat/gatt as jatt surname.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Multani are Lubana. But Jattland claims Gat/gatt as jatt surname.
    thanks!....the lubana are similar to lohana??

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