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Thread: The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    ...

    If Naga worship is Dravidian culture and Naga Panchami is a Dravidian festival, then Dravidians were present across South Asia before Aryan entered?
    I would say there is nothing Aryan or Dravidian about snakes.

    We also know that snake worship was a feature of the scythians.
    "Snake as a symbol, is represented in almost all mythologies, and is associated with land fertility, female energy, water, rain, on the one hand, and the hearth, fire (especially heavenly fire), and the male fertilizing beginning on the other.
    Living in our steppes Scythians worshiped snakes, believing in their descent from the supreme god Papaya “snake-legged” goddess Api. This “women-snake” is the mother of the Scythians the founder of the Scythian tribes is often depicted on billboards, quivers and armors of warlike nomads. The Slavs associated snakes with Perun. Snakes had a few values and purposes (as characters). Images of snakes – small snakes decorated ancient vessels with water. Snakes of Perun suites symbolize divine clouds, lightened, powerful outburst of the disaster. These snakes are hydra-headed. You cut one head and the other will grow and throw fire (lightning). Firedrake is the son of the sky mountains (clouds). These snakes kidnapped beauties (the moon, stars, and even the sun). Snakes can quickly turn into a boy or girl. This is due to the rejuvenation of nature after the rain after each winter. Snakes are guardians of untold treasures and medicinal herbs living and dead water. Hence the snake-doctors and symbols of healing are taken from this." https://skifska-etnika.com/brand/en/...cient-scythia/

    The Deo of Nysa (wherever that may be - Anatolia, Crete, or Bactria, Oeso?) followers, we know from stories told that they were a snake cult.
    Alexander's mother:
    "all the women of these parts were addicted to the Orphic rites and the orgies of Dionysus from very ancient times (being called Klodones and Mimallones)1 and imitated in many p229 ways the practices of the Edonian women and the Thracian women about Mount Haemus, 8 from whom, as it would seem, the word "threskeuein"2 came to be applied to the celebration of extravagant and superstitious ceremonies. 9 Now Olympias, who affected these divine possessions more zealously than other women, and carried out these divine inspirations in wilder fashion, used to provide the revelling companies with great tame serpents, which would often lift their heads from out the ivy and the mystic winnowing-baskets,3 or coil themselves about the wands and garlands of the women, thus terrifying the men."
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...xander*/3.html


    Some have even noticed that the Malta folk on the Baikal had snake motifs - very suprising that far north in the LGM.
    "On one side of the plate we can see three snakes. The snake is rare in northern hemisphere Paleolithic art, presumably because the cold conditions precluded a wide distribution of snakes. In addition, it can be seen that the snakes have very broad heads, as though they belong to the Cobra group - yet Cobras are now known only in southern asian localities." https://www.donsmaps.com/malta.html
    Last edited by parasar; 11-02-2020 at 02:26 PM.

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  3. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I would say there is nothing Aryan or Dravidian about snakes.

    We also know that snake worship was a feature of the scythians.
    "Snake as a symbol, is represented in almost all mythologies, and is associated with land fertility, female energy, water, rain, on the one hand, and the hearth, fire (especially heavenly fire), and the male fertilizing beginning on the other.
    Living in our steppes Scythians worshiped snakes, believing in their descent from the supreme god Papaya “snake-legged” goddess Api. This “women-snake” is the mother of the Scythians the founder of the Scythian tribes is often depicted on billboards, quivers and armors of warlike nomads. The Slavs associated snakes with Perun. Snakes had a few values and purposes (as characters). Images of snakes – small snakes decorated ancient vessels with water. Snakes of Perun suites symbolize divine clouds, lightened, powerful outburst of the disaster. These snakes are hydra-headed. You cut one head and the other will grow and throw fire (lightning). Firedrake is the son of the sky mountains (clouds). These snakes kidnapped beauties (the moon, stars, and even the sun). Snakes can quickly turn into a boy or girl. This is due to the rejuvenation of nature after the rain after each winter. Snakes are guardians of untold treasures and medicinal herbs living and dead water. Hence the snake-doctors and symbols of healing are taken from this." https://skifska-etnika.com/brand/en/...cient-scythia/

    The Deo of Nysa (wherever that may be - Anatolia, Crete, or Bactria, Oeso?) followers, we know from stories told that they were a snake cult.
    Alexander's mother:
    "all the women of these parts were addicted to the Orphic rites and the orgies of Dionysus from very ancient times (being called Klodones and Mimallones)1 and imitated in many p229 ways the practices of the Edonian women and the Thracian women about Mount Haemus, 8 from whom, as it would seem, the word "threskeuein"2 came to be applied to the celebration of extravagant and superstitious ceremonies. 9 Now Olympias, who affected these divine possessions more zealously than other women, and carried out these divine inspirations in wilder fashion, used to provide the revelling companies with great tame serpents, which would often lift their heads from out the ivy and the mystic winnowing-baskets,3 or coil themselves about the wands and garlands of the women, thus terrifying the men."
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...xander*/3.html


    Some have even noticed that the Malta folk on the Baikal had snake motifs - very suprising that far north in the LGM.
    "On one side of the plate we can see three snakes. The snake is rare in northern hemisphere Paleolithic art, presumably because the cold conditions precluded a wide distribution of snakes. In addition, it can be seen that the snakes have very broad heads, as though they belong to the Cobra group - yet Cobras are now known only in southern asian localities." https://www.donsmaps.com/malta.html
    True....the snake and snake worship is prominent amaong many cultures along the mediterranean, The scythians particularly revere the snake as you said, and it is on this basis , that some writers point to a naga-scythian- nair connection in the past!....although genetics dont seem to bear that hypotheses out!

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  5. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by vishankar View Post
    yes...mostly nagas were a pre-aryan people!....when the indo-aryans came to India and the subcontinent, there are frequent references to conflicts with Nagas-burning of Khandava forest by Bhagwan Krishna and Arjun,the naga extermination by Parikshit....but also there were intermarriages- arjun with uloopi, being one example...the snake worshippers were also tillers of the land , in all probabiltiy....

    Garuḍa in Sanskrit, in Pali Garuḷa

    Similarly, Uloopi -> Udoopi/Udupi?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udupi

    Their(Alupa) coins carried the dynastic title "Sri Pandya Dhananjaya" which means "Arjuna among the Pandyas".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alupa_dynasty
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 11-13-2020 at 05:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Garuda in Sanskrit, in Pali Garula

    Similarly, Uloopi -> Udoopi/Udupi?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udupi

    Their(Alupa) coins carried the dynastic title "Sri Pandya Dhananjaya" which means "Arjuna among the Pandyas".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alupa_dynasty
    i am not much of a believer in these derivations, but Garuda is often depicted as a enemy of the Nagas....))....possibly a totem of a clan of indo -european speakers!...Uloopi and UDUPI...not sure dear!

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Jhas are usually from the Maithil and Tarai area.
    The etymology given is:
    Upadhyaay - Uvajjhaaya - Uvojha - Ojha - Jha
    In our area, Ojhas are considered priests who are associated with spells and charms - a very Atharvan trait. They were like the karapans of the Gathas.

    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Interesting. I've seen Ojha surname among Bahuns and Chettris, but Jha is exclusively a Terai Brahmin name in Nepal.
    Continuing here for relevency, it is also used by Stanika community

    Oja- Meaning Acharya; An honorofic title given to certain families by kings and emperors of yore along with Tamra patra shasana (certificate). It is given to those families well versed in all four vedas; vedangas;upangas; and upavedas along with tantragama and mantravada. They are teachers and examiner in chief in gurukulas and ghatikasthaana temples e.g-

    Chera Nattoja- They are the moola prathistapanacharya /tantragami of Puttur Shree Mahalingeshwara,Dharmasthala shree Manjunatheshwara(previously called Kuduma Mahadeva),Vittla shree panchalingeshwara and Polali shree Rajarajeshwari Temples.
    Moroja- They were the high priests of Mayoorvarma king and moola prathistapancharya and tantragami of Kukke Subrahmanyeshwara temple.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sthanika_Brahmins

    Does tantragami mean followers of tantra? is this what you refer to as spells and charms?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Continuing here for relevency, it is also used by Stanika community





    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sthanika_Brahmins

    Does tantragami mean followers of tantra? is this what you refer to as spells and charms?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra
    In vernacular Hindi...OJha was a sorcerer/Tantrik( from my understanding, when i was based in Delhi!)....even the Nambudiris of Kerala are associated with Tantras!

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    Sorry for barging in like this after a long time but I was so bored lol. Please don't mind me.

    The discussion immediately above about Hindi Ojha/Tulu Oja reminds me of this Telugu prakRti-vikRti example they used to teach us in school: according to Telugu textbooks, there os a "vikRti" word in Telugu called ojja for a prakRti word upAdhyAy[uDu]. This ojja word is very rare in Telugu usage but it does exist. Though these Telugu prakRti-vikRti things turn out to be wrong connections in several cases, apparently this one is right: the Turner Indo-Aryan etymological dictionary says that OIA upAdhyAya evolved into NIA with a predominant form of ojhA (like the Hindi example) and meanings like 'schoolmaster', 'wizard', 'sorcerer', etc.

    The Telugu, Tulu, etc. words might have been borrowed from MIA/NIA languages rather than being direct nativisations of Sanskrit borrowings because they look so similar in form to NIA equivalents.

    Edit: Lol parasar seems to have talked about etymology from upAdhyAya already; I did not read the thread in full detail. Sorry about that.

    Edit 2: For the Hindi word jhA referring to a caste name in Bihar though, Turner's etymological dictionary suggests adhyApaka as the source, and not upAdhyAya! The crazy way in which NIA languages undergo syllable simplification makes it quite difficult to determine which word came from which word but perhaps linguists have done the hardwork to find out that jhA came from adhyApaka only most likely and ojhA came from upAdhyAya only most likely.
    Last edited by anthroin; 11-25-2020 at 10:55 PM.

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    The connection proposed earlier between Ulupi and Udupi seemed rather interesting to me linguistically because of that intriguing retroflex L - retroflex D/R connection possibility. But it seems the l in the Sanskrit word ulUpI is just a normal denti-alveolar l so I don't think it connects to uDupi in any manner unless somehow the Sanskrit ulUpI became uLUpi in Tulu/Kannada and then later became uDupi/uRupi. I don't know if there was any tendency in Tulu/Kannada to change L into R, but yeah, apparently IA languages did that a bit. This might actually be connected to the confusion between l and r seen even in early stages of IA like Sanskrit. These L and R would just be retroflex versions of the l and r in their behaviour.

    In Dravidian languages also there is a L/R split: in their case, some languages of the South Dravidian-I branch developed their inherited retroflex approximant, Z, into a retroflex lateral approximant, L. Well-known example is Kannada. On the other hand, all South Dravidian-II languages developed their inherited Z into either voiced retroflex stop D or the retroflex flap R. (I am using "R" as a symbol in this post for retroflex flap and not the Sanskrit syllabic consonant). Seems like a common cross-linguistic tendency. Unsure if the Dravidian history is connected to the Indo-Aryan history in this particular feature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    The connection proposed earlier between Ulupi and Udupi seemed rather interesting to me linguistically because of that intriguing retroflex L - retroflex D/R connection possibility. But it seems the l in the Sanskrit word ulUpI is just a normal denti-alveolar l so I don't think it connects to uDupi in any manner unless somehow the Sanskrit ulUpI became uLUpi in Tulu/Kannada and then later became uDupi/uRupi. I don't know if there was any tendency in Tulu/Kannada to change L into R, but yeah, apparently IA languages did that a bit. This might actually be connected to the confusion between l and r seen even in early stages of IA like Sanskrit. These L and R would just be retroflex versions of the l and r in their behaviour.

    In Dravidian languages also there is a L/R split: in their case, some languages of the South Dravidian-I branch developed their inherited retroflex approximant, Z, into a retroflex lateral approximant, L. Well-known example is Kannada. On the other hand, all South Dravidian-II languages developed their inherited Z into either voiced retroflex stop D or the retroflex flap R. (I am using "R" as a symbol in this post for retroflex flap and not the Sanskrit syllabic consonant). Seems like a common cross-linguistic tendency. Unsure if the Dravidian history is connected to the Indo-Aryan history in this particular feature.
    From what I understand, correct me where I am wrong,

    Change can happen when both are retroflex (L/D) or dentialveolar ( l/d)?

    As per Asokan Edict 13 and Manusmriti, choda mentioned is 'd', not pronounced as ChoDa? If Choda refers to Chola.

    or change from ChoDA -> ChoLA -> Chola ?

    And this (conquest) has been won repeatedly by Devanampriya both [here] and among all (his) borderers, even as far as at (the distance of) six hundred yojanas where the Yona king named Antiyoga (is ruling), and beyond this Antiyoga, (where) four kings (are ruling), (viz, the king) named Tulamaya, (the king) named Antekina, (the king) named Maka, (and the king) named Alikyashudala, (and) likewise towards the south, (where) the Chodas and Pandyas (are ruling), as far as Tamraparni.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_..._Rock_Edict_13


    44. (Viz.) the Paundrakas, the Chodas, the Dravidas, the Kambojas, the Yavanas, the Shakas, the Paradas, the Pahlavas, the Chinas, the Kiratas, the Daradas and the Khashas." [15]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinas
    Edit : Regarding L/R split

    Linguist P. Gururaja Bhat specified in Tulunadu(A research book) that Tuluva originated from word Turuva
    Is Tuluva, pali/prakrit version for sanskrit Turuva?

    Like As in Ashokan inscritions - Kelalaputra -> Keralaputra

    Kelalaputa is the Prakrit for Kerala. Filliozat, Jean (1974). Laghu-Prabandhāḥ (in French). Brill Archive. p. 341. ISBN 978-9004039148.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulu_people
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 12-01-2020 at 06:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthroin View Post
    I think kaula is a vRddhi derivation within Sanskrit from the word kula, meaning 'of kula'. Analogies include Telugu words like kaumAraM, 'adolescence' from kumAruDu, 'child'.
    If Kaula -> of Kula

    another one, Draupadi -> of Drupada ( Daughter of Drupada )

    Similarly, Kaurava -> Of Kurava or Kuru

    Kaurava is a Sanskrit term for the descendants of King Kuru
    Maurya -> of Murya or Muru/Mura ?

    Some later authors, such as Dhundiraja (a commentator on the Mudrarakshasa) and an annotator of the Vishnu Purana, state that the word "Maurya" is derived from Mura and the mother of the first Maurya king. However, the Puranas themselves make no mention of Mura and do not talk of any relation between the Nanda and the Maurya dynasties.[38] Dhundiraja's derivation of the word seems to be his own invention: according to the Sanskrit rules, the derivative of the feminine name Mura (IAST: Murā) would be "Maureya"; the term "Maurya" can only be derived from the masculine "Mura".[39]
    Is Dhundiraja's derivation is not accurate?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire

    As per the claim, Purana makes no mention of Mura, which is not correct, couple of them, including one for a King and a county.

    3) Mura (मुर).—(muru) A Yādava King. He was one of the neighbours of Jarāsandha. The daughter of this Yādava king called Kāmakaṭaṅkaṭā was married to Ghaṭotkaca. (13. 13. Sabhā Parva and Skanda Purāṇa).
    4) Mura (मुर).—(muru) A country of ancient Bhārata. A King called Bhagadatta was the King of this country. (Śloka 14, Chapter 14, Sabhā Parva).

    https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/mura
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 12-02-2020 at 03:29 PM.

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