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Thread: The South Asian Institute of Regional Surname, Gotra, Clan, and Tribal Analysis.

  1. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    They never had any to begin with , I just asked my Sindhi friend based in Quetta to confirm few hours back. Rather Zamindars/Thakur classes of them proxy as Brahmins and indeed that is what it says in a leading Sindhi magazine.

    THAKURS – These are the descendants of Lord Jhulelal. They are the official Brahmins of the Sindhi community. They head many Sindhi Tikanas and Durbars.

    http://www.sindhishaan.com/article/c...ult_12_04.html

    Jhulelal is the chief patron saint/deity for Sindhi Hindus, followed by Nanak.
    Nanak as in Guru Nanak dev ji?
    Deg Teg Fateh - Victory to Charity and Arms

    Punjab, Punjabi, Fateh.

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  3. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Nanak as in Guru Nanak dev ji?
    Who else? This is a very rare name, as far as I know.

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  5. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    AFAIK there are some Saraswat Brahmins of Sindhi origin. The blog you sent actually says this as well.

    A century ago there were two principal families of Brahmins in Sind, the Pokarno and the Sarsat who were also called Saraswat. The Pokarno Brahmins came from upper India and were the worshipper of Vishnu. They were scholars in Sanskrit, astronomy and were well-versed in Hindu law. The Saraswats were the worshippers of Shiv and they were more dignified in appearance, manners and were also educated persons. In Sind they also learnt Persian language and they performed all the religious rites of the Hindus. The Brahmin shaved their heads leaving a single lock of hair. Upon his forehead a Brahmin had a horizontal or perpendicular mark. His dress was of a trader consisting of a white or red turban, a cotton coat and a Shawl or a short cloth thrown loosely over the shoulders and the Brahmins used slippers of anything but of leather. In his hand he carried a sandalwood rosary of 27 beads and he had the constant habit of muttering the name of God.

    http://www.sindhishaan.com/article/h...ist_03_04.html

    The Pushtikar Brahmins of Rajasthan, also claim kinship with the Raja Dahir and the Brahmin dynasty of Sindh. Purohit can confirm. It seems some clans are present among Sindhi Hindus, but in very small numbers.
    I don't take much stock in old wives tales and stories, but logically under pir/guru like system the role of a traditional Brahmin more or less vanishes, in their case I don't think they had a Brahmanical system to begin with. Also this region strongly seems to have been Indo Aryanized much later and seems to have retained its archaic character far longer. Linguistically speaking that also makes sense as Sindhi and Khetrani are not as basal as some Southern Punjabi dialects, its also not coincidental that those Lohana/Sindhi Hindus look strikingly similar to their Punjabi counterparts and different from the lay Sindhi populations. They were likely part of populations who moved from the Punjab area and Indo Aryanized the region. Their results confirm this.

    What I consider a lay Sindhi

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 48.72
    2 S-Indian 27.79
    3 Caucasian 10.53
    4 NE-Euro 3.87
    5 SW-Asian 3.41
    6 Mediterranean 2.38
    7 Beringian 1
    8 Siberian 0.78
    9 American 0.6
    10 NE-Asian 0.46
    11 SE-Asian 0.42
    12 Papuan 0.06



    vs a Sindhi Hindu


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 38.2
    2 S-Indian 28.28
    3 Caucasian 14.88
    4 NE-Euro 13.36
    5 American 1.62
    6 Mediterranean 0.99
    7 SE-Asian 0.75
    8 Papuan 0.52
    9 Siberian 0.48
    10 SW-Asian 0.41
    11 Beringian 0.4
    12 W-African 0.1

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 3.19
    2 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.16

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  7. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Nanak as in Guru Nanak dev ji?
    A substantial number of Sindhis are also known as Nanakpanthis, their beliefs are syncretic. Lately there has been a lot of research on them.

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  9. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Nanak as in Guru Nanak dev ji?
    YES , Sindhis are ardent worshipers of him.

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  11. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raza94 View Post
    Read somewhere that some Rajputs also used Syeds because the Mughals would give them that title upon conversion. Not sure how true it is though.

    FWIW I am a Punjabi "Syed" myself but we have no idea what we really are
    Interesting guess you learn something new which is why im on here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    `

    I don't take much stock in old wives tales and stories, but logically under pir/guru like system the role of a traditional Brahmin more or less vanishes, in their case I don't think they had a Brahmanical system to begin with. Also this region strongly seems to have been Indo Aryanized much later and seems to have retained its archaic character far longer. Linguistically speaking that also makes sense as Sindhi and Khetrani are not as basal as some Southern Punjabi dialects, its also not coincidental that those Lohana/Sindhi Hindus look strikingly similar to their Punjabi counterparts and different from the lay Sindhi populations. They were likely part of populations who moved from the Punjab area and Indo Aryanized the region. Their results confirm this.

    What I consider a lay Sindhi

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 48.72
    2 S-Indian 27.79
    3 Caucasian 10.53
    4 NE-Euro 3.87
    5 SW-Asian 3.41
    6 Mediterranean 2.38
    7 Beringian 1
    8 Siberian 0.78
    9 American 0.6
    10 NE-Asian 0.46
    11 SE-Asian 0.42
    12 Papuan 0.06



    vs a Sindhi Hindu


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 38.2
    2 S-Indian 28.28
    3 Caucasian 14.88
    4 NE-Euro 13.36
    5 American 1.62
    6 Mediterranean 0.99
    7 SE-Asian 0.75
    8 Papuan 0.52
    9 Siberian 0.48
    10 SW-Asian 0.41
    11 Beringian 0.4
    12 W-African 0.1

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 3.19
    2 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 5.16
    How do we know that Sindhi Hindus are migrants from Punjab and Khatris aren't migrants from Sindh (or at least South Punjab)?

    Sindhi Muslims scoring different to Sindhi Hindus could be explained by Sindhi Muslims mixing with Baloches. There was a large scale Baloch migration from Balochistan to Sindh and South Punjab after all. Since Baloches and Sindhi Muslims belong to the same religion, I would expect that Baloches would have mixed with the locals and made a genetic imprint there. Or maybe I'm overestimating the scale of Baloch migration to lands east of the Indus River?

    I guess we'd have to look at South Punjabis (both Muslims and Hindus) who don't claim any Iranic (Pashtun/Baloch) origins to compare with Sindhi Muslims. South Punjabi Muslims may also be Baloch-admixed similar to Sindhi Muslims since they experienced a Baloch migration as well. If South Punjabi Hindus score differently than South Punjabi Muslims, then we can say that the Muslims of Sindh and South Punjab are Baloch-admixed.

    Also, it would help if we could divide Sindhi Muslims by their biradari/jati. It'd be interesting to see if some non-Lohana Sindhi Muslims score like Hindus or if they all have uniform genetics. I recall seeing a PCA posted here showing that Sindhi Muslims had some genetic diversity, but can't find it at the moment (I think agent_lime was the one that posted the PCA). Here is a source that claims that Lasbela Ismailis/Khojas have Iranian origins:

    The Iranian Ismailis in Lasbela however maintained their own Iranian cultural traditions and customs. With the passage of time, they absorbed the local traditions, which richly sounded in their names, such as Nim, Foto, Laung, Aachar, Jaffer, Karami, Ibn, Ibu, Hashu, Shalu, etc. When the Ismaili merchants of Kutchh came into their contact in Lasbela, they however retained their own cultural tendency, which sounded in their names, such as Angaro, Sumar, Araba, Jumo, Khamiso, Chhanchhar, etc. The most prominent family among them was Aloo or Alwani family. Later on, the original Iranian Ismailis in Lasbela immersed in Indian culture through the learning of the religious education from the Ismailis of Kutchh.

    The Ismailis, who later on migrated to Karachi and flourished the Lassi jamat, mastered the study of the ginans. How did they know the ginans when they were originally Iranians and had nothing to do with the tradition of ginans? In fact, they learnt the ginans from the Ismailis of Kutchh. The Ismailis in Lasbela thus emerged as a new generation of the mixed blood of Iran and India, who began to assume the names henceforward as Bhalu (Baledina), Jafu (Jaffer), Gulu (Ghulam Hussain), Mamu (Muhammad), etc.
    There is a Sindhi user here (heksindhi), do we know his biaradari/jati and how he scores on HarappaWorld?

    Regarding language. Sindhi is usually grouped with Punjabi, Seraiki, and Dogri within the same branch of Indo-Aryan. So Sindhi isn't any less basal than Punjabi or Dogri are since they belong to the same IA branch. AFAIK, this branch (which also includes Western Hindi dialects inc. Khari Boli) is descended from Shauraseni Prakrit, so that would mean that Dardic languages are the only modern IA languages without a Prakrit root.
    Last edited by Mingle; 04-03-2019 at 08:00 PM.

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  15. #378
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    ^ The Sindhi language is not "basal" at all. Also, in regards to the early Prakrits, most of the differences between them and the Sanskrit dialect is in sound changes. The Shauraseni dialect was the one that underwent the least sound changes, and even languages like Pali are for the most part intelligible with Sanskrtam, and anyone who knows how to speak Pali for e.g. can understand the Sanskrit language. The early Prakrits cannot even be called languages in the modern sense, but mere dialects belonging to the same language continuum as the Sanskrit (refined) dialect.

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  17. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    How do we know that Sindhi Hindus are migrants from Punjab and Khatris aren't migrants from Sindh (or at least South Punjab)?

    Sindhi Muslims scoring different to Sindhi Hindus could be explained by Sindhi Muslims mixing with Baloches. There was a large scale Baloch migration from Balochistan to Sindh and South Punjab after all. Since Baloches and Sindhi Muslims belong to the same religion, I would expect that Baloches would have mixed with the locals and made a genetic imprint there. Or maybe I'm overestimating the scale of Baloch migration to lands east of the Indus River?

    I guess we'd have to look at South Punjabis (both Muslims and Hindus) who don't claim any Iranic (Pashtun/Baloch) origins to compare with Sindhi Muslims. South Punjabi Muslims may also be Baloch-admixed similar to Sindhi Muslims since they experienced a Baloch migration as well. If South Punjabi Hindus score differently than South Punjabi Muslims, then we can say that the Muslims of Sindh and South Punjab are Baloch-admixed.

    Also, it would help if we could divide Sindhi Muslims by their biradari/jati. It'd be interesting to see if some non-Lohana Sindhi Muslims score like Hindus or if they all have uniform genetics. I recall seeing a PCA posted here showing that Sindhi Muslims had some genetic diversity, but can't find it at the moment (I think agent_lime was the one that posted the PCA). Here is a source that claims that Lasbela Ismailis/Khojas have Iranian origins:



    There is a Sindhi user here (heksindhi), do we know his biaradari/jati and how he scores on HarappaWorld?

    Regarding language. Sindhi is usually grouped with Punjabi, Seraiki, and Dogri within the same branch of Indo-Aryan. So Sindhi isn't any less basal than Punjabi or Dogri are since they belong to the same IA branch. AFAIK, this branch (which also includes Western Hindi dialects inc. Khari Boli) is descended from Shauraseni Prakrit, so that would mean that Dardic languages are the only modern IA languages without a Prakrit root.
    Khatris, Kohistanis are firmly rooted with SPGT populations, so no they cannot be migrants from Sind, also this region is depressed for Steppe. Some members including me noticed that SPGT populations were different in harboring a different kind of Iranian related ancestry and also excess Siberian. I and a few members emailed Reich about this. At first there was apprehension but the statistical fits were clear. Now they have a "Steppe " cline and a separate designation for SPGT (see below). Surprisingly some members results actually matches up perfectly with what Dani said decades ago, Agentlime's model results are an almost textbook vindication of that.



    Heksindhi's fathers results


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baloch 47
    2 S-Indian 23.84
    3 Caucasian 13.23
    4 NE-Euro 5.62
    5 SW-Asian 4.91
    6 W-African 2.47
    7 Beringian 1.18
    8 NE-Asian 1.1
    9 American 0.38
    10 SE-Asian


    Most Iran_N rich Sindhis are not Iran_N rich by virtue of mixing with Baloch for the most part but because of strong continuity with Iran_N rich populations living in the region for millenia, all those upcoming assumed IVC samples are heavily Iran_N related rich (70-90%).

    Last edited by pegasus; 04-04-2019 at 08:31 AM.

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    Is anybody here familiar and know much about Jatt gotra Mahanger, Mahangar, Mahanghar or Menger?

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