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Thread: Spread of R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe

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    Spread of R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celts in western Europe


    The reason i am making this thread is to make the the idea or i guess theory known. That R1b1a2a1a L11 which takes up about 50% of western European Paternal lineages was spread with Germanic, and Italo Celtic languages. I dont get deep into the culture's because Wikipedia doesn't give enough info. But i tell what cultures most likely spread what and when. This is not a crazy idea i see that even FTDNA (FTDNA R1b page) and Eupedia(Eupedia R1b page) says this is most likely what happened. And if it is true they are who brought red hair over 1% in most of west Europe and spread Gedorasian in west Europe. That means western Europeans owe alot of their ancestry not just paternal lines to the first Germanic Italo Celts to arrive about 5,000ybp. Like with Balto Slavic people( signature Y DNA R1a1a1b1 Z283) in eastern Europe this is like the ultimate western European ethnicity Germanic Italo Celtic(signature Y DNA R1b1a2a1a L11). Since i am so mixed with so many different countries Germanic Italo Celtic is the only think i can say i am about 100%.
    What are Germanic Italo Celts????
    The word is confusing because when people hear Germanic they think Germany or Scandinavia when they hear Italo they think Italy and when they hear Celtic they think Ireland or Scotland. Germanic Italo Celtic is a branch of the Indo European language. Or at least Germanic and Italo Celtic are branches that were spread by similar cultures and from the same R1b1a2a1a L11 source. It maye also be orignally R1b1a2a1 L51 but this is also found in Iran so i am not sure. From R1b1a2a1a L11 it breaks down into Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21 and Italo Cetic R1b1a2a1a2 S116 but there are also very rare Germanic subclades.

    Last edited by Fire Haired; 09-21-2013 at 05:47 AM.

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    Origin of Germanic Italo Celts
    Indo European languages would have probably begun around Ukraine, Russia, and north mid east 6,000-8,000ybp. Indo Iranian and Balto Slavic languages spread with R1a1a1b S224 and out of Russia and Ukraine which are the areas of Indo European homeland are according to the Kurgen hypothesis(Y DNA spread by Indo Europeans). But Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 grandfather R1b1a2a L23 is over 20% in Caucus, Anatolia and Iraq. It is also over 10% in alot of southeastern Europe. The mid east is the place were the oldest subclades of R1b originated like R1b1 P25. R1b itself may have originated there about 18,000ybp.

    Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1 L11 fathers originated in the mid east and at some point came to Europe either southeast Europe or Russia and Ukraine. Eupedia thinks it came as its grandfather R1b1a P297 in the Neolithic age about 7,000-8,000ybp then formed into R1b1a2 M269 and R1b1a2a M73. Then R1b1a2 M269 migrated with Indo European languages from Ukraine down into southeast Europe about 6,000ybp forming into R1b1a2a L23. Then to western Europe forming into R1b1a2a1 L51 and R1b1a2a1a L11. I think it came out of the mid east as R1b1a2a L23 but then after that had the same migrations. FTDNA i read thinks R1b1a2a L23 came to southeast Europe from Anatolia about 7,000-8,000ybp in the early Neolithic then later spread to western Europe.

    FTDNA says the age estimates of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 is about 6,500-5,000ybp so arriving in the late Neolithic. It would have mixed and conquered Bell Beaker culture. two R1b samples from 4,600ybp remains in bell BEaker GErmanyd efintley shows Germanic Italo Celts had arrived and since 31 Neolithic Y DNA samples from west Europe dating anywhere from 7,000 to 4,735ybp not one had R1b. Totally backs up this idea of Germanic Italo Celtic origin of western European R1b1a2a1a L11 and it arriving in the late Neloithic then spreading mainly in the bronze age. They split into Italo Celtic(with some rare Germanic subclades) R1b1a2a1a2 S116 (FTDNA estimates 5,500-4,000ybp) while in central Europe most likley Unetice culture and Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21(FTDNA estimates 5,500-4,000ybp) while migrating north. Since they would have mixed with Bell Beaker culture this can explain why early Germanic Nordic rbonze age culture and early Italo Celtic cultures like Unietce and Urnfield technically are defined as descendants of Bell Beaker culture. And some Bell Beakr culture migrations when it became apart of the bronze age could be migrations of Germanic Italo Celts.



    Migration map of R1b from Eupedia.


    It is hard to say who exactlley geneticalley the people who were the first Germanic Italo Celtic speakers were. There has been a preview of a Scientific paper that will come out soon about DNA from 5,000 and 6,000 year old Yamna suspected to be Indo European people in southern Ukraine and Russia. Only some info was released in June 2013 they said the mtDNA haplogroups( Marker in Mitochondrial chromosome passed form mother to children) all had typical Caucasian groups so mid east and Europe with no Mongoloid groups. They had pale skin like modern euopeans and had the same phenotype as modern Europeans. Also that they had more brown eyes than most modern Europeans but around the same rate as people in that area today.

    DNA from Indo Iranian Indo Europeans in central and eastern Asia some are 3,800 years old. Had mainly light
    hair and eyes and some mummies had red hair for info on their Y DNa and mtDNA hg's click on this().This shows that there were diff ethnic groups in Russia, Ukraine, north mid east area 6,000-8,000ybp who knows which one the proto Germanic Italo Celts were apart of or what mixes. Since there is a lot of evidence red hair in western Europe comes from the spread of Germanic Italo Celts that would mean they were European and probably more related to the type Indo Iranians came from. THeir common ancestry would be from pre Indo European speakers in Russia and Ukraine area.

    Here you can see from the K12b aust.DNa test. That Gedrosian which is a off branch of west Asian is very popular around Iran, Pakistan, and north India. It seems to match the distribution of R1b1a2a L23(and descendants in Europe and mid east. From what I have read R1b is suppose to have originated around Iran and Pakistan. So that Gedrosian component stayed in heavily r1b people even when they migrated to west Europe. This shows probably what happened is a mid eastern R1b L23 people made there way to either Ukraine or southeast Europe some how got Indo Europen language maybe they already spoke it then they made their way to west Europe. They would have inter married with Europeans probably very heavily in Ukriane but stayed pure on the paternal side maybe because they conquered people groups in Ukraine and Russia.



    Here is the R1b family tree it gives the people group or area it originated which helps.



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    Italo Celts

    Map of Italo Celtic R1b S11/P312 some very early italo Celtic speakers mixed with proto Germanic speakers while both were in central Europe. So there are also Germanic branchs of R1b S116 but they are pretty rare.


    Like i said before the Italo Celts split from the Germans in modern day central Germany. Then migrated to central Europe starting Unetice culture about 4,500-4,300ybp they also formed into R1b S116/P312 during this time which is estimated to be about 5,500-4,000 years old by FTDNA.

    bronze swords from Unetice culture

    R1b1a2a1a2c L21 branch

    Celtic R1b1a2a1a2c L21is estimated according to FTDNA to be about 5,500-4,000ybp and would have orignated around France. It most likely migrated from Tumulus culture, Unetice, or Bell Beaker culture during the bronze age in modern day France and conquered Britain and Ireland somewhere between 3,000-4,300ybp with Insular Celtic languages as the majority of their Y DNA. And some R1b1a2a1a2c L21 is stayed in western Europe. The book of invasions written by Irish monks in the 1000's ad. Say there were 7 major invasions of Ireland the last one was one by Irish ancestors who were Gealic Celts who conquered the Fir blog. This could be talking about Celtic conquering of Ireland about 3,000-4,000ybp. They say the those Celts they invaded are modern Irish ancestors. And there is alot of DNA evidence that moden Irish are mainly decended from those Celtic invaders(British ancestry almost all from Celtic and Germanic invaders)


    Germanic tribes Angeals, Jutes, and Saxons and maybe others all coming from around Denmark, Netherlands, and northern Germany conquered southern and central Britain from 400-550ad. The western Roman empire was becoming weak and the Britons depended on Rome for military they had also lost alot of their identity. Many Insular Celts from Briton retreated into Britanny in western France which is why R1b1a2a1a2c L21 is so popular there. There were also invasions of Vikings from mainly around Denmark and south Scandinavia So all of these invasions lowered the percentages of R1b1a2a1a2c L21 in Britian and raised percentages of it in Scandinavia and Iceland.

    Map of the distribution of R1b1a2a1a2c L21 before all the Germanic invasions in the late Roman period and middle ages R1b L21 would be as popular as it is in Ireland in all of Britain.




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    R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 branch
    R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 most likelyoriginated in France in the bronze age around 4,000ybp. It takes up the vast majority of R1b1a2a1a2 S116 in Iberia which is about 50-80% of the total Y DNA. So it would have been the main Y DNa haplogroup of the Celts that migrated to Iberia it is hard to say when they came. The Bell Beaker Culture most likely had slowly become Germanic Italo Celtic from 5,000-4,000ybp. The first time Iberia became apart of the bronze age was 3,500-4,000ybp which could be a sign of when the mainly R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 Celts arrived. Tumlus or Urnfield cultures around 3,000-3,600ybp could have also been when Celts migrated to IBeria. The only for sure time Celts were in Iberia was with Hallstat culture 2,700-2,500ybp.

    Not all Iberians became total Celts. Some kept their native language but by the way R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 is dominate in all of Iberia today including non Indo European Basque speakers makes it seem like they were probably still conquered by Celts just not in language.

    map of R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 subclades M153(marker of Basque and ancient Aquitaine speakers basque are the last left), SRY 267. These are only two subclades of R1b Df27 basically almost all R1b in Iberia is R1b Df27.



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    R1b1a2a1a2b S28/U152 branch


    First of all what really surprised me when i first learned this. Is Gauls culture Hallstatt later La Tene goes back to the same father as Italic Villnoeavean(culture Rome was born in) called Urnfield culture in bronze age central Europe. They are also united by a very high amount of R1b1a2a1a2b ancient Romans saw Gauls as their oppiste it would be probably very hard for some to believe how connected they were. I have already explained when Germanic Italo Celts came and how proto Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116 most likley began in central Europe around 5,000-4,000ybp with Unetice culture R1b1a2a1a2b S28 is estimated according to FTDNA to be 3,500-5,000ybp in central Europe and most likely first spread with Urnfield culture. Celts made very strong migrations deep the most western areas of Europe forming into R1b1a2a1a2c L21 and R1b1a2a1a2 Df27. R1b1a2a1a2b S28 is kind of the eastern branch of Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116 it stayed in the areas it originated.

    Unetice later gave way to Tumlus culture then Urnfield culture in central Europe. and it was very spread out. I dont know that much about the specific parts of their culture and how they spread if alot of it was just other people adopting their culture by trade or if it was conquest probably a mix. I cant really get a good enough idea from Wikpedia. So i am just giving the basic's.

    Bronze sword and Armour from warrior burial 1,000bc(about 3,000ybp) Urnfield culture in northern Italy


    Urnfield you can see eon the map made migrations to Italy which was the migration of Italic languages and R1b1a2a1a2b S28 into Italy. Bronze age Urnfield culture in Italy later formed into Iron age Villnoeaven culture around 800bc. I don't know the whole history of the migration and conquest of Italy by Italic speakers in archaeology, Villnoeaven only took up a small part of central Italy. But i know that eventulley all of Italy even Sicily became Italic and i know this happened by around 600-800bc if u want to learn more click History of Italy and History of Rome. Once again i am not an expert on the detailed culturally stuff. But i do know Italic tribes were very influenced by Greece. The oldest Italic writing is from a bronze plate from 800bc around the time of Villnoeaven culture and it was based on Greek alphabet. You can just see the Italic tribes and the non Italic Estrucans in Italy culture was extremely similar to Greeks and did not obviously show connection to their brother Hallstatt Celtic culture in central and western Europe.

    I don't know the whole history of this but eventulley Romans conquered Italy of mainly other Italic;s, then also Celts, and Estrucans by 218bc(Roman conquest of Italy). And after that with Conquered almost the entire Celtic world and all land that borders the Mediterranean sea. They were the road that Christianity took to spread across the Mediterranean and become the official religion of the Roman empire in 380ad about 350 years after Jesus was crucified. Christianity also became the main religion for Celts in Ireland, Picts in modern Scotland, and eventulley all Germanic tribes and if it wasn't for the Roman empire Christianity would have a hard time getting to those areas. It completely changed culture in Europe and Rome did in alot of other ways. So i know Rome kind of created the western world or was extremely important. It is one of the most important and powerful civilizations or just people group in human history. click here History of Rome. This thread is really just about how, when, and what cultures spread Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 so sorry if i don't give alot of info.

    Bronze age Urnfield culture in central Europe formed into late bronze age and early iron age Celtic Hallstatt culture around 900bc. Which then spread very far in central and western Europe. Then Hallstatt culture formed into la Tene culture in central Europe around 450bc. Which later spread very far east and west. Hallstatt La Tene Gauls were also influenced by the Mediterranean world which Ceasar pointed out and said the less civilized Gauls were the bravest and hardest to conquer.

    Map of the expansion of Hallstatt and La Tene Celtic cultures by Eupedia
    To learn more about them click on Hallstat culture, La Tene culture, and the Gauls.


    Summary of Deadliest warrior epiosde Celt vs Persian Immortal. The Celt is a La Tene Gaul they are kind of the most famous Celts the ones we have the most writting from Greeks and Romans describing them. They are the famous Celts who fought naked(they had technology for Armour just a sign of bravery), spiked their hair, well lots of Celts did that including Picts in Scotland. They Sacked Rome them and their ancestor culture Hallstatt conquered alot of the powerful Estrucan civilization and other parts of northern Italy conquered alot of the Balkans in eastern Europe and a bunch of other stuff.

    Bronze sword from Hallstatt culture in central Europe from 1,000bc about 3,000ybp. You can see it is very very very similar to the 3,000 year old bronze sword from Urnfield culture in northern Italy. So i think this is a style of sword that goes back about 3,300 years or more in Urnfield culture in central Europe.


    Map of R1b1a2a1a2b S28 which most likely first spread with Urnfield culture father to Celtic Hallstatt and Italic Villnoeaven. You can see that it extends in the Balkans areas La Tene Gauls conquered in the 400-200'sbc and in central Turkey they were named Galatians by Greeks. It goes pretty deep into Germany and even Hungary because Urnfield and Hallstatt culture existed in those areas. Since Germanic tribes did not migrate deep into modern Germany until the Iron age and during the Roman empire before this R1b1a2a1a2b S28 would probably be more popular. It is also pretty deep in Britain which probably is because of contact with Hallstatt and La Tene Gauls.


    R1b1a2a1a2d L238 and R1b1a2a1a2e Df19

    These are Germanic branches of R1b1a2a1a2 S116. But are very rare. I could not find really any info on them just that L238 is Nordic and Df19 is Anglo Saxon or from around Netherlands and Denmark.

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    Map of Germanic R1b S21/U106

    Map of total Germanic Paternal lineages. While Germanic speakers migrated accroos central Europe 4,000-4,500ybp they mixed with the natives and got some I2a2 and I1a subclades. When they conquered south Scandnavia 3,500-4,000ybp they spread I2a2 and got alot of I1a2 and some R1a Z284. So during Iron age Germanic migrations they did not just spread R1b S21 they actulley probably spread more I1a and I2a2. This map combined all R1b S21/U106, I1 except subclades of Finnish origin, I2a2a M223, and R1a Z284. I think it is kind of un accruate because all of those haplogroups except R1b S21/U106 orignated in non Germanic speaking people that Germans later conquered and mixed with. So alot of I2a2a M223, non finnish I1, and R1a Z284 was not spread by Germans. R1a Z284 came from proto Balto Slavic speaking Corded ware culture thatsruled souther Scandnavia till Germans came 4,000-3,500ybp. Almost all non finnish I1 in Scandnavia was there before Germans and same with I1 in central Europe.


    The proto Germanic speakers split from Italo Celtic speakers in Central Germany about 4,500ybp during this time forming into R1b1a2a1a1 S21 which is estimated according to FTDNA to be about 5,500-4,000 years old. ItMigrating north conquering Netherlands, northern Germany, Denmark, and southern Scandinavia from 4,000-3,500ybp. They began the Nordic bronze age culture which lasted till 500bc. While Germanic speakers conquered central Europe they mixed with the natives and got some I2a2 and I1a subclades when they conquered south Scandinavia they spread I2a2 and got alot of I1a2 and some R1a Z284. So during Iron age Germanic migrations they did not just spread R1b S21 they also spread more I1a and I2a2

    Map of Nordic Bronze age culture

    It seems German speakers stayed in the areas they originated until around 700bc. There may have been some R1b1a2a1a1 S21 in central Germany before this. That could mean there were people who spoke a related language to German, spoke a Germanic language, or were R1b1a2a1a1 S21 people conquered by italo Celtic cultures. (Possibly R1b1a2a1a1 S21 from 3,000ybp German Urnfield culture).

    Here is a map that kind of shows the major Germanic migrations starting around 700-500bc.



    map of Germans and their language family in 1AD. Blue North Germanic, Red North sea Germanic, Orange Weser-Rhine Germanic, Yellow Elbe Germanic, Green east Germanic

    Starting around 200bc there were Germanic migration across the Baltic sea to Poland and they later spread acroos pretty much all of Europe not Ruled by Rome. The east Germanic tribes are Vandals and Goths. U can see R1b1a2a1a1 S21 is very spread out in eastern Europe and alot of the I1 M253 probably also was spread by east Germanic tribes. From about 400-550ad Angeals, Saxons, and Jutes conquered southern Britain which is why There are two Germanic languages in Britain English and Scots and why it is those areas with very high amount of R1b1a2a1a1 S21 and I1 M253. Also after Rome all of western Europe at one time or another was under a Germanic kingdom. Which is why R1b1a2a1a1 s21 is somewhat popular in northern Italy and goes pretty far south into Italy and why it is in eastern France. To learn more about Germanic peoples click on(Germanic peoples).

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    This shows all R1b in Europe. I am talking specifically about Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11. Which would show much more of a connection with distribution of red hair areas with 1% or more.

    I have been thinking this for a few months did the R1b1a2a1a Germanic Italo Celts who arrived in west Europe 5,000ybp spread red hair. I described how i think Germanic Italo Celtic spread acroos western Europe and when on my thread Germanic Italo Celts. I didn't do it perfectly i did not explain the different cultures and stuff like that. Or go into detail about about the people. But i gave a basic idea of how and when they spread and in what cultures which FTDNA R1b page says the same(click here). Some criticized me for being to romantic or Patriotic about them and saying their connected with red hair i was just trying to make it exciting and i am not being biased about this. I defintley don't think they are the original source of red hair. U can see in my thread Origin of red hair. Red hair exists in Samartians who have no traces of European in globe13 test. Also red hair exists in Urlaic Udmurts in volga Russia at 10-15% as high or hogher than anywhere in western Europe. Also red hair was pretty popular in proto Indo iranian speakers in northern Russia. Red hair exists throughout Europe but is extremely rare i think it originated in the mid east 60,000-80,000ybp but first went over 1% in Russia 12,000-20,000ybp.

    If it is true red hair was brought over 1% in west Europe by Germanic Italo Celts this would mean a huge portion of western Europeans ancestry is from proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers. Heavily red haired people like in the British isles might mainly descend from Germanic Italo Celts not native western Europeans. The dissertation of red hair maps that show only areas with 1% or more almost perfectly matches the map of R1b in Europe but really comes from subclade R1b1a2a1a L11. It seriously borders the R1b1a2a1a L11 Germanic Italo Celtic world and the rest of Europe. There is 1-3% in areas of Poland which had alot of Gothic and Vandal settlement and Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 S21. also southern Croatia which had alot of Italo Celtic Urnfield settlement and a pretty good amount of Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116.

    I am for sure that red hair was brought up over 1% n Scandinavia by the spread of Germanic speakers who migrated out of central Europe and arrived in southern southern Scandinavia 4,000ybp and started Nordic bronze age culture. Here is how i know the connection with the distribution of pre Celtic pre Germanic I2a2 in Scandinavia which matches the distributions of Germanic R1b1a2a1a1 s21 and red hair at 1% or more.


    To me it is pretty obvious Germanic speakers spread red hair to Scandinavia or at least raised it to 1% or more. Why couldn't Italo Celts done the same in western Europe. The Gedorsian in K12b test shows total connection with R1b in Europe which is almost all under R1b1a2a L23. The British isles in western Europe has the highest they also have the highest R1b1a2a1a L11 and red hair so maybe most ancestry from proto Germanic Italo Celts i made that argument in this thread(British almost all ancestry from Celtic and Germanic invaders). Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 grandfather R1b1a2a L23 would have come out of the north mid east or at least its great great grandfather or whatever at some point 6,000-10,00ybp it arrived in southeast Europe or southern Russia. So the high amount of red hair would be from the maternal side and Europeans in one of those areas they inter married with i wonder if somehow deep mtDNa subclades cane trace it.

    Since red hair is so much under the borders of heavily R1b1a2a1a L1 and Germanic Italo Celtic speaking areas it is obvious to me there is no way this is from the Neolithic western Europeans. The borders and everything is just to much evidence for me i cant really think of any other explanations than Germanic Italo Celts. Click here this project excepts to get pigmentation genes from Bronze age Corded ware people in central and northern Europe from about 3,000bc(5,000ybp). I except no red hair all brown and blonde like people in Poland and most in Baltic area today. But if they get Pigmentation from Bell beaker people or another people in central Europe from 5,000ybp like the R1b samples from Bell Beaker. I except at least some red hair it might prove this idea. I except that if they test for it they might find from 100 Y DNA samples a almost only R1b1a2a1a L11 people with over 10 having red hair maybe 20. and the surrounding non R1b1a2a1a L11 people will have all Brown and blonde which would be huge evidence for this i guess theory. The proto Germanic Italo Celtic speakers i think had around 20% red hair.

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    That's a lot to digest. I would recommend next time scaffolding the information a little, posting a small, easily digestible portion and then awaiting a response before posting more. I won't read book-length stuff on these forums, not unless it's posted by some author I already know I really enjoy. I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment. I don't mean to be insulting. I have to watch the length of my own posts, as well.

    I can't even attempt to address all you have posted above. I will say, however, that I think it is a fundamental error to conflate the Italo-Celtic and Germanic subfamilies of Indo-European. Even the idea that Italic and Celtic stem from the same parent dialect is controversial, but I don't know of anyone who draws all three branches from a single parent this side of PIE itself.

    I also think that you, as a modern man, belong to some subclade well downstream of L11; you just haven't tested positive for the intervening SNPs yet. When you eventually do, they will tell their own story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I also think that you, as a modern man, belong to some subclade well downstream of L11; you just haven't tested positive for the intervening SNPs yet. When you eventually do, they will tell their own story
    Geno 2.0 tests for Germanic? R1b1a2a1a1 S21/U106, Italo Gaulish(Urnfield culture?) R1b1a2a1a2b S28/U152, and Celtic R1b1a2a1a2c L21. Our direct male line all we know goes back to Scotland or England L21 and S21 take up almost all of Britain's R1b. So I know we have something very very very very very rare I think probably R1b1a2a1a2a Df27. Because I but our haplotype into one of those predictors and every time R1b North/South was most likely. Later I found out the predictor was out of date and now R1b North/South is under R1b1a2a1a2a Df27 which is over 50% in Iberia, over 20% in most of France, and 1-5% in British isles. I am hoping for R1b1a2a1a L11* because that is the original Germanic Italo Celtic form probably what those 4,600ybp Bell Beaker R1b samples. Or had. Or proto Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a2 S116/P312*.
    Last edited by Fire Haired; 09-22-2013 at 12:29 AM.

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    mtDNA (M)
    H64 sub of H33

    I remember u saying something about some think Bell Beaker began around the black sea. But since 22 y DNA sample from Terrills southwest France not one had R1b and it is around 70-80% there today shows the Celts had not arrived. Age estimates shows R1b1a2a1a L11 arriving central Europe at the earliest 6,000-5,000ybp. Then the subclades u see today Italo Gaulish?? R1b1a2a1a2b S28.U152 would have expanded starting only 4,000-3,500ybp perfect timing for the begging of Urnfield culture the father of Italic Villnoeaven and Celtic Hallstat. Age estimates say that R1b1a2a1a L11 subclades first really expanded and became popular in the bronze age. Perfectly matches up with most likley early Germanic Nordic bronze age culture and early Italo Celtic Unetice culture.

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