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Thread: Understanding 6th-Century Barbarian Social Organization and Migration through Paleoge

  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Looks like CL63 is probably I1 not I2. See thread below:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....085#post487085
    Ughhh what the hell... looks like ancient samples are not too reliable for determining haplogroups? At least some don't seem to be... that sucks.

    So what we know about those two I1s is that they're positive for M253 but can't really be determined for deeper clades?

    Can someone run those I1s also through gedmatch calculators? I'd do it but I'm too busy (not lazy) and I'm on the phone.

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  3. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Ughhh what the hell... looks like ancient samples are not too reliable for determining haplogroups? At least some don't seem to be... that sucks.

    So what we know about those two I1s is that they're positive for M253 but can't really be determined for deeper clades?

    Can someone run those I1s also through gedmatch calculators? I'd do it but I'm too busy (not lazy) and I'm on the phone.
    It isn't necessarily very straight forward when testing ancient tissue, as DNA degrades and depending on the specific pH of the soil that the remains are found in it could accelerate that process.

    Yes, that is pretty much what we know about those I1-M253's which are only determined to be M253. However we seem to rarely run into these issues with ancient R1b, perhaps it has something to do with more familiarity with R1b over I1?
    Last edited by spruithean; 09-13-2018 at 10:05 PM.
    Y-DNA: I-A14097 [Big Y: Complete] (Scotland), Big Y: I-Z140>F2642>Y1966>Y3649>A13241>Y3647>A14097 (1,850 YBP)
    mtDNA: pending (Westeremden, Netherlands)
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    R-M222 x2 (Ireland), R-L21 x2 (Ireland & Scotland), I-M223 (Ireland), R-S1141 (Scotland), R-U198 & R-U106 (Netherlands), mtHg J1c3 (Ireland)
    Known ancestry
    Paternal: Britain & Ireland, France and Germany
    Maternal: Netherlands

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  5. #313
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    Szolad on Gedmatch (regular)

    kit number
    Z891841 SZ9
    Z560831 SZ8
    Z117741 SZ7
    Z878724 SZ6
    Z855720 SZ5
    T963830 SZ45
    T331118 SZ44
    Z817510 SZ43
    Z156535 SZ42
    Z887416 SZ41
    Z129947 SZ40
    Z298465 SZ4
    Z453129 SZ38
    Z450920 SZ37
    Z961044 SZ36
    Z629675 SZ35 - low snps count
    Z261020 SZ32
    Z250394 SZ31 - low snps count
    Z298008 SZ30
    Z151393 SZ3
    Z888816 SZ28
    Z732151 SZ27
    Z201314 SZ25
    Z306476 SZ24
    Z530540 SZ23
    Z569816 SZ22
    Z886825 SZ20 - low snps count
    Z206864 SZ2
    Z947904 SZ19
    Z019700 SZ18
    Z054110 SZ16
    Z253968 SZ15
    Z200736 SZ14
    Z236800 SZ13
    Z862010 SZ12
    Z589316 SZ11
    Z710290 SZ1

    few aren't on this plot, don't know why
    Last edited by lukaszM; 09-14-2018 at 12:07 AM.

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  7. #314
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    For anyone new viewing this thread (saw some mention of Y-DNA haplogroups etc) for what it's worth - here are the U106+ samples from Szolad and Collegno - keep in mind CL84 from Collegno who was U106+ was kin with several other Northern Euro males who might be U106+ (but were only taken to something ancestral of U106/P312 in the paper)...

    Dating of Szolad samples: middle third of the sixth century (550s - 570s AD? Occupied by a mobile group for 20-30 years) based on a combination of stylistic elements of the grave goods and radiocarbon analysis. Dating of Collegno samples: between 580 and 630 CE based on artefact typology.



    SZ 2: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z30/S271>Z2>Z7>Z8>ZZ58 by A. Williamson (Wayne K also ran SZ 2 in HG38 assemblies for this sample and found it Z8+, but not ZZ58+): male aged 2-3 years of age. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; periosteal lesions maxilla. Autosomal: 90%+ CEU+GBR 10% FIN

    SZ 4: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z18>Z372/S375 by A. Williamson: male aged 30-40 years of age. Skull shape Dolichocrany. Height: 166.0 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance and rectangular enclosures surrounding graves 4 and 5 are also worth mentioning and suggest that there was some sort of a relationship between the deceased. While only a few parallels are known in the West [18], such features may point to Roman traditions [19]; given that the site was situated within the former Roman Empire, this would be an element specific to Szólád. Stress markers etc: Cribra orbitalia; enamel hypoplasia; sharp-force trauma right os parietale; periosteal lesions right maxilla; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; caries; periapical lesions. Autosomal: 90% GEU+GBR 10% FIN

    SZ 11: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>~2222759 2-T-A>FGC13489>hg38:20038474-A-C by A. Williamson: male aged 35-45 years of age. Skull shape: Hyperdolichocrany. Height: 175.5 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; healed right hip and right humerus fracture; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; periodontitis. Autosomal: 100% CEU+GBR

    (Note from A. Williamson: SZ4 may actually be negative for Z373/S495 but because it's within DYZ19 I wasn't 100% convinced. For SZ11, I had to create a new block downstream of FGC13489 as he shares a variant with BigY kit Cemin (N23903).)
    SZ 20: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263 (per Anthro user Waldemar analysis - plus I took a look at the SNPs - shows positive for U106+ and S263+ and Z381+). Male aged 25-35 years of age. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield, Arrows. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Enamel hypoplasia; double-rooted lower canine; periodontitis. Autosomal: Not as Northern European as the other U106+ "Longobards," but clusters with SE England and Hessen, Germany - some Northern Italian/more Southern admixture perhaps? May also be a case of low number of SNPs for autosomal DNA.

    SZ 23: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263: male aged 6-12 months. Stress makers etc: Periosteal lesions left and right maxillae. No grave goods? Autosomal: 25-30% TSI (Tuscan), rest is 60% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

    SZ 16: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263: male aged 45+ years of age. Stress makers etc: Caries. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield. Autosomal: about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

    CL (Collegno) 84: R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263: Kin to 1st gen group of Northern European men who are R1b - L151+: Autosomal: Almost 100% CEU+GBR - small amount of FIN - kindred group autosomal: CL 83 is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 97 is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 87 is 95% CEU+GBR and about 5% TSI (Tuscan) from 50-70% Northern European mother? CL 92 and 93 about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN, CL 145, 146 90+% CEU+GBR + small amount of FIN, CL 151 100% CEU+GBR. For comparison with Bavarian samples ALH 1 is about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN. Grave goods: Rich grave goods/chamber grave no weapons? Some weapons in grave goods of kingroup members.

    Cheers,
    Charlie

    Edit: additionally it might be worth mentioning that sample SZ 11 matches the Niederstotingen men to SNP level Z319 under L48 so R-M269>U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319... here are the Niederstotzingen men:

    Concerning kinship relations at Niederstotzingen: Both kinship estimates show first-degree relatedness for pairs 1/3A, 1/6, 1/9, 3A/9, and 9/12B and second-degree relatedness for 1/12B, 3A/6, 3A/12B, and 6/9. Except for 12C, all of the Niederstotzingen North individuals are detectably and closely related. (Niederstotzingen North, in this paper, refers to grave 1, 3a, 6, 9, 12b, and 12c - all are Northern in their autosomal DNA).


    Niederstotzingen Grave 1: R-U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 40-50 years of age. Grave good: Lance, shield, saex, double-edged sword (spatha). Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Norwegian. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 3a: R-U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48> Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 20-30 years of age and archeological context: Byzantine. Grave goods: Lance, shield, saex, double-edged sword (spatha), arrows, and bridle with silver pressed sheet metal fittings of Byzantine ornamentation. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Norwegian, Icelandic, Irish. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 6: R-U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 14-17 years of age and archeological context: Lombardian. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha), belt and bridle originating from Lombard Italy. Belt ornamentation dated to beginning of 7th century. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Norwegian, Icelandic. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 9: R-U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 40-50 years of age and archeological context: Franconian (Frankish). Grave goods: Lance, shield, shield handle, saex, double-edged ring sword (ring-pommel spatha). The ring sword has a silver pommel and bead golden decorative button, and the lance engravings indicate Frankish origin. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Irish. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 12b: R-U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 30-40 years of age and archeological context: Byzantine. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha), lance, shield, lamellar helmet-Byzantine style. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Irish, Icelandic. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 12c: R-U106/S21>Z2265>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 20-30 years of age. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha). Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Icelandic, Norwegian, Lithuanian. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).
    Last edited by Bollox79; 09-14-2018 at 12:44 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania - Sergeant in US 17th Infantry, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817. I share these SNPs w/ York Gladiator 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Ireland, Scandinavia and Hungary - T2b female warrior Grave Bj 581 near Birka, Sweden. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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  9. #315
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    Has anyone been able to run CL30's data to see if any other SNPs under P312+ can be yielded? It didn't seem to be a low quality sample.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

  10. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    My friend only one of the E samples is E-V13 the other is E-V22.
    Quite puzzling I'm one of the very very rare white ravens in North Dutch with E-V22 and plot very close to these 'barbarian tribes':



    Flux-reflux it looks like a cocktail shaker

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  12. #317
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    PCAs with Szólád and Collegno samples




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  14. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    PCAs with Szólád and Collegno samples



    Thank you. That was exactly was I was waiting for!

  15. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    PCAs with Szólád and Collegno samples



    Cool, the SZ45 I1 is close to Serbian and Croatian. Can't see where the CL63 I1 is but it's probably in that bunch overlapping NW Europe...

  16. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username View Post
    Cool, the SZ45 I1 is close to Serbian and Croatian. Can't see where the CL63 I1 is but it's probably in that bunch overlapping NW Europe...
    CL63 overlaps with CL102, but CL63 is more Caucaus and northern influenced and less EEF. You should find it on the PCA.

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