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Thread: R1b-U106 from Únětice Culture 2200–1700 BC

  1. #21
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    Of course....but when we declare everything as ultimate complex, we see only foggy things....

    Based on the genetic samples and archeological knowledge we could at least make an attempt to reconstruct the past....always in knowledge that's not the same as THE past (the past is simply past and shall never return

    That said I'm very interested in arguments against my statements in previous postings here....it stays surprisingly silent...

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Of course....but when we declare everything as ultimate complex, we see only foggy things....

    Based on the genetic samples and archeological knowledge we could at least make an attempt to reconstruct the past....always in knowledge that's not the same as THE past (the past is simply past and shall never return

    That said I'm very interested in arguments against my statements in previous postings here....it stays surprisingly silent...

    I thought it was interesting though as a way to illustrate that population movements across the North Sea and around Europe didn't begin with the Romans, Anglo Saxons and Vikings, (which should be obvious) although they maybe obscure the fine detail from earlier periods because of their larger scale.
    If U106 was in Scandinavia during the Nordic bronze age there appears no logical reason to me that it couldn't have been in parts of Britain also around the late bronze age or early iron age. People were obviously being transported from Scandinavia and other parts of Europe. Were they slaves or early settlers? I'm not suggesting that was in any great numbers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Indeed!!

    There is elsewhere on Anthrogenica a discussion on the BB/CW mixtures in relationship to the British Beaker. May be Rise 98 is also related to this???

    And about the timing of Rise 98, wiki about BB:
    Is there evidence that there were BB settlements in Sweden? I have only heard about the exchange of goods between Jutish Bell Beakers and other Scandinavian communities. I am interested in Scania, because the grave is from that region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Is there evidence that there were BB settlements in Sweden? I have only heard about the exchange of goods between Jutish Bell Beakers and other Scandinavian communities. I am interested in Scania, because the grave is from that region.
    https://www.academia.edu/2464050/Pre...ical_watershed

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    Thank you, but I cannot find anything about Bell Beaker settlements in Sweden. Sweden received flint resources from their Bell Beaker neighbors though.

    Btw, I have also read more about the barbed wire decoration in Sweden. According to the shape the tradition is most likely derived from the Single Grave culture ( a Corded Ware), though part of the decoration may point at a Bell Beaker hybrid.
    But: "The subject is difficult due to the fact that Late Neolithic pottery is insufficiently studied, and so far chronological groupings are not distinguishable."

    Barbed Wire in the northern Netherlands comes after a period of Veluwe Style and Epimaritime Beakers. This tradition is not necessarily equal to Scandinavian Barbed Wire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Thank you, but I cannot find anything about Bell Beaker settlements in Sweden. Sweden received flint resources from their Bell Beaker neighbors though.

    Btw, I have also read more about the barbed wire decoration in Sweden. According to the shape the tradition is most likely derived from the Single Grave culture ( a Corded Ware), though part of the decoration may point at a Bell Beaker hybrid.
    But: "The subject is difficult due to the fact that Late Neolithic pottery is insufficiently studied, and so far chronological groupings are not distinguishable."
    Barbed Wire in the northern Netherlands comes after a period of Veluwe Style and Epimaritime Beakers. This tradition is not necessarily equal to Scandinavian Barbed Wire.
    Nope indeed, Scania Beakers are most probably Jutish derived:
    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/...urnalCode=ejaa

    And in the Dutch situation there were blurred lines between CW and BB.....

    At least as Precott has also shown they were very mobile and used the seas! No doubt they reached Scania.....

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    And keep in mind the majority of R1b U106 is after the BB, it did come with Unetice/Tumulus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Nope indeed, Scania Beakers are most probably Jutish derived:
    http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/...urnalCode=ejaa
    Well, there is only evidence of commerical contacts. Not sure if Scania Bell Beakers exist, because there is no evidence of BB settlements in Sweden.


    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    And keep in mind the majority of R1b U106 is after the BB, it did come with Unetice/Tumulus.
    Maybe. Personally, I agree with Iain McDonald's posts on Yahoo R1b-U106 forums. Subclades like R1b-Z156 might have indeed spread with Unetice/Tumulus, but I strongly doubt that other subclades like L48 and Z18 were part of this spread. I believe that they were already in Scandinavia/Northern-Germany before these mentioned cultures.

    As some of you may have been following on Anthrogenica ( https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ighlight=I7196 ), our new U106 ancient burial from Prague has now been further refined to:
    U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > Z381 > Z156 > Z306 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894
    Being S1894+ myself, this obviously makes me very happy. I've been very lucky to have two out of the five early U106+ burials be R-S1894. However, it also raise some interesting possibilities for everyone else. I should point out that the S1911 and S1894 assignments are made from single reads, but that's normally ok providing one is not searching for novel variants and provided the read quality is ok.

    These are still very early days for understanding this burial and the context in which he was found. Perhaps the most important factor here is the date of the burial. Carbon dating hasn't (as far as I can work out) been performed. Contextually, the site has been given a date of between 2200 BC and 1700 BC in the Olalde publication, and we have to assume from the R-S1894 haplogroup that the burial lies towards the end of this period.

    This is interesting in the context of the age and spread of the older U106 branches. This burial closest U106 individual to an existing lineage that we know of: the Swedish (RISE98), Dutch (Olalde) and York (Roman) burials are all many centuries more recent than their most-recent known haplogroups, and don't give us great constraints on the ages of haplogroups. I had dated S1894 to between 2545 BC and 1231 BC, with a best guess of 1866 BC. Clearly, if this burial is S1894+, the real date must be in the earlier part of this timeframe. This pushes back the most likely dates of all the haplogroups around it. The following are guideline ages for the youngest each clade is likely to be (i.e. we can be 95% confident the true ages are older than these dates):
    R-S1894: before 1740 BC
    R-S1911: before 1800 BC
    R-DF98: before 1875 BC
    R-Z304: before 1895 BC
    R-Z306: before 1950 BC
    R-Z156: before 2280 BC
    R-Z381: before 2380 BC
    R-BY30097: before 2410 BC
    R-Z2265: before 2440 BC
    R-U106: before 2470 BC
    R-L11/L151/P311: before 2560 BC
    Better constraints for U106 and L11 come from RISE98 and other ancient burials.

    The Y-STR difference between the R-S1894 and R-L11 ancestral values is:
    DYS492=12->13 @ Z2265
    DYS464c=17->16 @ Z156
    DYF395s1=15-16 -> 16-16 @ DF98
    DYS557=16->15 @ DF98
    DYS607=14 @ S1911
    DYS511=12->11 @ S1894
    DYS552=24->25 @ S1894 [exact location questionable]
    The expected timeframe for this set of mutations is much shorter, only about 500 years. The discrepancy may be due to missing back mutations in this dataset, and is hopefully something we can explore better in the coming months. However, it points to a relative absence of STR mutations between the R-Z156 MRCA and R-Z304's, and a relative surfeit between the R-Z304 MRCA and R-DF98's, with implications for the time periods between these clades. The relative proximity of the R-Z306 SNPs Z8161, Z305 and Z306 (respectively hg38 positions 20404882, 20443277 and 20625892) could indicate an origin in a single event, but I've no idea how likely this is.

    Any implications for the migration history of these branches can only be guesswork at this stage, particularly for someone with no archaeological background like myself. It will take time to ruminate and fully understand what these sources are telling us. However, we can derive some pointers for the origins and spread of U106 from this man.

    The western Czech Republic is very much the eastern boundary of the modern R-U106 and R-L11 bulk distributions. Myres et al. (2007) notes a 28% R-M269 frequency and a 14% R-U106 frequency in the Czech Republic, part of a declining trend heading eastwards. Without any evidence of R-U106 basal clades or a substantial modern R-U106 population to the east of Prague, it's hard to imagine the R-U106 common ancestor lived much further east.

    The Unetice culture provides some context for the burial. It extended across most of the modern Czech Republic and north-west into Germany and south-western Poland. It abuts the Copper Age cultures of the western Baltic, which provide the basis for the RISE98 U106 burial, and the Bell Beaker culture to the west, which had statistically zero R-U106 until around 1700 BC, when the first R-U106 makes an appearance in the Hook of Holland. Temporally, this combined evidence suggests an ancestral origin for R-U106 within the broader Corded Ware umbrella in the regions between Prague and the Baltic. Hence, taken with the ancient R-P312 burials and modern R-S1194 distribution, I'd posit the R-L11 MRCA living somewhere across the north coast of Germany. However, I hasten to add that similar extrapolation would not have predicted a R-S1894 burial in Prague!

    Geographically, the R-Z156 clade lies towards the southern extent of the R-U106 distribution. One possible reason for this could be that R-Z156 found itself as part of the group that founded the Unetice culture, differentiating it from the Corded Ware culture. Whether this was via the Nitra culture or not, I don't know.

    If this is the case, the predominant spread of R-Z156 (and potentially other R-U106 clades) westwards would probably come with incorporation into the Tumulus culture, and we see a very significant increase in the number of R-U106 clades (indicating a population explosion) around the same time. It would also explain some of the sporadic eastern European R-Z156 results we have: unlike other major eastern R-U106 groups (which mostly show descent from Sweden or Germany during Gothic or post-Roman times), eastern R-Z156 populations seem to have a more ancient origin that may tie into the trade links of the Unetice culture and its descendants.

    Again, these are some of the questions we hope to probe better with statistical analysis in the coming year or so. The analyses here are very much early opinions and rough calculations rather than established fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radboud View Post
    Well, there is only evidence of commerical contacts. Not sure if Scania Bell Beakers exist, because there is no evidence of BB settlements in Sweden.




    Maybe. Personally, I agree with Iain McDonald's posts on Yahoo R1b-U106 forums. Subclades like R1b-Z156 might have indeed spread with Unetice/Tumulus, but I strongly doubt that other subclades like L48 and Z18 were part of this spread. I believe that they were already in Scandinavia/Northern-Germany before these mentioned cultures.
    Ok when BB British and Dutch BB are almost the same why isn't there any R1b U106 in the British Bell Beaker context?
    Why does R1b U106 does show a founder effect in the "Elp-culture" area?

    In other words BB was the culture before Unetice/Sögel Wohlde......BB Beaker British doen't show any R1b U106 so a previous culture doesn't seem likely.
    Last edited by Finn; 03-02-2018 at 10:23 AM.

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Ok when BB British and Dutch BB are almost the same why isn't there any R1b U106 in the British Bell Beaker context?
    Well, why isn't there any R1b-U106 in the Bell Beaker context until around 1700 BC in The Netherlands? This could also point to a CWC origin.

    Why does R1b U106 does show a founder effect in the "Elp-culture" area?
    Was there even a founder effect to begin with in this area? There are a number of different U106 subclades in that area, which are also found over a range of other Germanic-speaking countries. It's unlikely the Sogel warriors are responsible for most subclades.

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