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Thread: Is U106's route to Northern Europe instructive for R1b-L151?

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    Is U106's route to Northern Europe instructive for R1b-L151?

    Latest info from the U106 forum - Iain McDonald. He has been okay with being quoted.

    It looks like this is Unetice. This would align, I think, with the idea that Desideri had that the men in the Beaker and Corded Ware cultures then later the Unetice in the Czech region were similar in dental traits even though the women were different. I can't remember the study, a but a German fellow had indicated the bronze metalworking practices were the same in the same region across those cultures.

    ... maybe it is different pottery but the same men and metalworking, and it would be sense for U106 to be a more mixed society since the Nordic cultures ended up be a balance of ancient male haplogroups.

    "In the recent publication of the Olalde sample, it appears that several results have been modified (or even added) since the pre-print. The sample from the Hook of Holland has not changed. However, we now gain the additional U106+ sample of I7196.

    The genealogical information reads:
    "R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a:S265:14052313C->A; R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a:S498:19047132C->T; R1b1a1a2a1a1c:S263:7246726C->T; R1b1a1a2a1a1:M405:8796078C->T"
    S265 = Z304; S498 = Z307; S263 = Z381 and M405 = U106
    So the individual is:
    U106 > Z2265 > BY30097 > Z381 > Z156 > Z306 > Z304
    We will need to check within Z304 in the raw data to see if any more recent mutations are identifiable.

    The grave record includes:
    "I7196/Grave 59: 2200–1700 BCE. Right-sided crouched burial, head towards the south. Sex: orientation – ?, anthropology – ?, DNA – M. Age: adult (35–50 years). Grave goods: bronze hair ring, bone awl, flint industry."

    The site record reads:
    "Prague-Jinonice (“Zahradnictví”, Prague 5 – Jinonice, Czech Republic)
    Contact person: Miroslav Dobeš, Petr Velemínský
    The rescue excavations at the site Jinonice – Holman’s gardening took place in 1984-1986 during the construction of the subway [101–103]. A total of 29 graves were found, dated to the older phases of the Únětice culture on the basis of grave equipment (ceramic and bronze inventory) and burial ritual [103,104]. The skeletal remains of 36 individuals were found in the graves [105], with predominance of adults between 20-40 years of age. However, the burial ground was not excavated completely. With the exception of two graves, grave goods (mainly pottery) were found in all graves"
    The site itself is in Jinonice in south-western Prague.

    The current age I have for Z304 is:
    R-Z304 2611 BC (95% confidence interval: 3208 BC — 2078 BC)"
    Last edited by TigerMW; 02-22-2018 at 05:31 AM.

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    What if the route for U106 in this case was not to Northern Europe but from Northern Europe? After all, RISE98 from the Nordic Battle Axe cemetery of Lilla Beddinge in Sweden is a couple of hundred years older than I7196 from the Únětice site in Jinonice in the Czech Republic.

    If U106 was in the Baltic Bell Beaker zone, or perhaps in northern Corded Ware, that would explain why it didn't show up in any of the Bell Beaker samples in Olalde et al, including those from the Czech Republic. Maybe it only started drifting south at the close of the Bell Beaker period.

    Of course, U106 or its immediate predecessor had to get to the Baltic from the steppe somehow, but I'm talking about where it was hiding out during the Bell Beaker period so that it was almost entirely missed in Olalde et al.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-24-2018 at 03:21 PM.

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    In the same post that Mikewww quoted Iain McDonald in #1 above

    McDonald goes on to say

    Personally, my suspicions based on the aggregate knowledge we have are that U106 probably formed in the regions between Prague and the Baltic Sea, and that Z156 has an origin in the regions around Prague or into the surrounding regions of Germany, only spreading westwards towards the North Sea and British Isles in the various periods following the end of the Únětice culture, perhaps around 1500 BC. Of course, this needn't apply to every U106 or even Z156 line.

    It will take some investigation and cogitation before the details become clear, but these are my first impressions.
    As U106 & P312 have to eventually go back to the same ancestor and P312 is tied to eastern Bell Beaker (primarily via U152), I think it's informative to also bring in this post from Richard Rocca
    This is quite an interesting sequence I've been looking at... Globular Amphorae Culture > Moravian Corded Ware > Moravian Bell Beaker

    The settlement at Olomouc-Slavonín and possibly other sites show a mix of Corded Ware pottery with "Begleitkeramik" pottery without the decorated Bell Beaker pottery as can be seen here: https://www.academia.edu/1223032/The...f_Bell_Beakers

    The only radiocarbon Corded Ware Culture dates I could find for Olomouc-Slavonín are as follows:
    2840 BC ± 60
    2610 BC ± 70
    2550 BC ± 50

    Source: https://www.academia.edu/26079634/_N...ogical_Context

    Also from the Czebreszuk paper...

    It is important to mention the special character of some
    Corded Ware cemeteries in central Moravia. Their assemblages
    and body positioning are keeping the traditions of the Corded
    Ware burial rite, however, their orientation is up to the Bell
    Beaker fashion (north-south, south-north) . Another puzzle is
    also the lack of clearly Beaker burial contexts.
    To your point Alan, we also need to account for how archery became so important to R-L51+ men. In Moravia at least, there is a evidence of Moravian Bell Beaker arrow-making techniques being the same as that of the Moravian Corded Ware...

    Evolution of the Moravian Bell Beaker culture is reflected
    in its lithic assemblages. During earlier phases (I and I/
    II), arrowheads dominate (Kopacz, Přichystal, Šebela 2009,
    Plates XXV: 4, 5; XXVI: 3; XXXIV: 5). They are usually
    manufactured from imported lithics (Jurassic silicites from
    the Cracow-Częstochowa Upland, silicites from glacial sediments)
    as well as from local raw materials (cf. Kopacz,
    Přichystal, Šebela 2009, 109, 128). Characteristic elements
    of the lithic industry include flat invasive retouch applied
    to arrowheads and a flake reduction technique which already
    appears during the final stage of the Moravian Corded
    Ware culture.
    Here is a map of Moravia and the expansions of Bell Beaker from/to surrounding areas...


    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post242380

    So we have U106 possibly near Prague and Eastern Bell Beaker possible beginning nearby in Moravia.

    While not the oldest dated samples, there were quite a few U152>L2 samples in the Olade paper from the Czech Republic
    U152-l2-central-europe.png
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    Also prior post I made on Amesbury Archer Isotope values

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post254120

    It’s north of the Alps but also includes present day Czech Republic
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-24-2018 at 07:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    . . .

    As U106 & P312 have to eventually go back to the same ancestor and P312 is tied to eastern Bell Beaker (primarily via U152) . . .
    I know there was a boatload of new L2 results in Olalde et al (I just finished updating my Google spreadsheet of Kurgan Bell Beaker results), but all of P312 is tied to eastern Bell Beaker and would have been even if not a single new U152 result had turned up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    I know there was a boatload of new L2 results in Olalde et al (I just finished updating my Google spreadsheet of Kurgan Bell Beaker results), but all of P312 is tied to eastern Bell Beaker and would have been even if not a single new U152 result had turned up.
    Oh I know...my post was not meant as a boasting about U152... I just wanted to be accurate in my description of the samples.I wish they would find some pre U152 P312
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-24-2018 at 10:23 PM.
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    I was hoping for at least one L21 on the Continent. I know the DF27 guys (and all the other P312 subclade guys) were hoping for some pay dirt, as well. Now we're all waiting to see what Genetiker (and others digging through the raw data) can turn up.

    I was also really hoping for the Amesbury Archer's genome, as well. That was a real disappointment.

    Really odd that no U106 turned up in Bell Beaker, if it ever was part of Bell Beaker. Like I said above, I'm thinking it must have been in the little bit of BB along the Baltic coast, which is why it hasn't turned up yet.
    Last edited by rms2; 02-24-2018 at 10:12 PM.

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    delete- duplicated
    Last edited by Jan_Noack; 02-25-2018 at 01:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan_Noack View Post
    click arrow - links in previous thread to Nature article in rms post and BAM files , word doc to read free
    hmm, I formed the impression that U106 (a whole of 3 samples!, so not significant conclusion can be drawn)., but so far it looked to me like went from North (bottom tip of Sweden and travelled south to Czech ? how can you get south to north?
    I concur with rms2, and after reading the posts here cannot see how anyone can draw a conclusion of R106 travelling from Czech up northwards. ..? ..the title of this thread..."Is U106's route to Northern Europe..."

    I also concur with rms2 that U106 so far from limited data does not appear to be a part of the BB culture ...perhaps somewhere, as suggested along the Baltic coast, but with no samples from archaeology as yet found.
    Last edited by Jan_Noack; 02-25-2018 at 02:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan_Noack View Post
    hmm, I formed the impression that U106 (a whole of 3 samples!, so not significant conclusion can be drawn)., but so far it looked to me like went from North (bottom tip of Sweden and travelled south to Czech ? how can you get south to north?
    I concur with rms2, and after reading the posts here cannot see how anyone can draw a conclusion of R106 travelling from Czech up northwards. ..? ..the title of this thread..."Is U106's route to Northern Europe..."

    I also concur with rms2 that U106 so far from limited data does not appear to be a part of the BB culture ...perhaps somewhere, as suggested along the Baltic coast, but with no samples from archaeology as yet found.
    rms2 also is saying
    If R1b-L11 was already in Vucedol-Zok, it could mean that L11 came with one of the earlier Kurgan waves (1 or 2), or it could merely represent another Yamnaya y-dna line in late Vucedol.
    Vucedol Culture started around 3000BC and Iain McDonald's best guess ages for U106 and P312 is 3022 BC & 3155 BC respectively
    If L11 (U106's relatively recent ancestor) was in/near present day Croatia, then at some point U106 or a man in between U106 and L11 had to have gone North.

    As I mentioned here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post354691
    My current thought is L11 was in/near the Czech Rep/Slovakia, Southern Poland in an area where Corded Ware and Bell Beaker overlapped and where groups existed that showed characteristics of both

    With U106 going North from this starting point
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-25-2018 at 04:09 PM.
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