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Thread: Ancient DNA upends the horse family tree

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Yep.

    I0805, from Mathieson 2015: ". . . traits at the acetabulum and the femur head suggesting that the individual frequently rode horses."

    I6581, from Olalde et al 2018: "Poirier’s facet, often observed in horse riders, is evident."

    Live with it.
    If so, there is a great possibilty of BB people to come from central Asia.

    The above anthro work by Dr. C Loring Brace(2003): the greek bronze people(the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types) is EXTEMELY close to cromagnon, which means paleo type skull. I think BB people belongs to them.

    As far as I known. this paleo type people disappeared in East Europe since gracile yamna, cwc and sintasha. The gracile factor looks like being from CHG, and EEF. EHG skull has a trait of "short skull, broad face and upper facial flatness” which is a description of cromagnon type or paleo europoid. That is why I think every russian anthropologist said that bronze steppe people broadly looks like cromagon and UP type (so called proto europoid), originating in cromagnon. It is a great mistake genetically and anthropologically to connect bronze steppe people to cromagnon or UP.

    see the below, the first one is yamna/afanasievo type. The BB/ greek broze type seems to be in brachy 2nd one. yamna M269 cannot make 2nd one.




    ** Memo:
    According to Dr. Brace, UP, mongolian bronze and greek bronze is close: mongolian bronze is not related with modern mongolian, but late bronze people chandman, who ties with Blackfook american Indian.


    Last edited by johen; 03-03-2018 at 04:42 PM.

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    Some scholars believe the extreme brachycephaly of some Bell Beaker skulls was due to the cultural practice of cradle-boarding. They did tend to be tall for the period and to have robust skeletons, as well.
     


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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Some scholars believe the extreme brachycephaly of some Bell Beaker skulls was due to the cultural practice of cradle-boarding. They did tend to be tall for the period and to have robust skeletons, as well.
    Maybe, but I disagree with it, b/c the Alpine, Dinaric, Armenoid, and Pamir-Ferghana types in Greek bronze looks very similar. It seems to me that the greek bronze has all traits of those 4 types. It is meaningless to classify them. Maybe BB type is just a little flattened from pamir type, just a little but it doesn't matter, I think.

    See, they all similar.

    Dinaric


    Pamir-Ferghana


    Armenoid: http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/4657216/1/


    ==> However, the most important thing is those kinds of people appeared all around the world at similar age, maybe with chariot.

    Greek bronze:
    Shaft tomb: burial type is different from BB.
    The practice of digging shaft tombs was a widespread phenomenon with prominent examples found in Mycenaean Greece; in Bronze Age China; and in Mesoamerican Western Mexico.[2]


    https://www.dartmouth.edu/~prehistor...oto_blog&h=480


    China bronze:


    Headband & hairmode of woman:

    http://www.chinareisen.de/761-Dem-Hi...ohne-Flug.html
    https://picclick.com/Old-Chinese-Pur...934531111.html



    https://philosophiaperennisetars.wordpress.com/page/3/

    Shaft tomb in china

    http://www.kaogu.cn/en/News/New_disc...616/50594.html



    ==> Looks like they are all caucasoid women. Where do you think they came from?
    The largest of these cities was Shimao. Founded about 4,300 years ago, Shimao was only inhabited for 300 years. In the ruins of this ancient stone town, archaeologists made a grisly discovery of over 80 human skulls—with no bodies in sight. The skulls were all of young women who died around 4,000 years ago. Further examination of the skulls showed evidence of violent deaths involving blunt objects and fire. As to why so many young women were beheaded and buried in a mass grave, researchers believe that the girls were probably from enemy groups and sacrificed as part of ceremonies to mark the founding of the city.
    https://listverse.com/2014/01/18/10-...man-sacrifice/

    Unlike the Yangshao and Hemudu people, who came from southern China, the Huang Di nation came from west of China, from the western part of the Eurasian continent. They conquered the native people of the Yellow River and the Yangtze River, who possessed a developed agricultural culture. By combining their own imported cultural factors with those of the native culture, the Huang Di people gradually developed a splendid new civilization in the Xia, Shang, and Zhou dynasties. They superseded the original native people to take the leading role on the stage of Chinese history. That the Huang Di nation was a branch of the archaic Indo-European people is one of the most remarkable facts thus far known to human history. But a large number of Indo-European words in Old Chinese language clearly attest to this fact. The relics left by the Huang Di people are related to the Longshan Culture in the archaeological chronicle, and the civilization of the Xia, Shang, Zhou, and Qin秦 dynasties were its successors.27 Evidence for this claim comes from two sources: the first uses the evidence of ancient documents to show that the Zhou people, and thus the Yellow Emperor’s nation, were originally a nomadic people, and the second is to reveal that there were a large number of Indo-European words in the Zhou language, using the evidence of historical linguistics. The third is the similarity in religion between the Huang Di people and Proto-Indo-European. As to the last point, please refer to the author’s paper “Old Chinese ‘帝*tees’ and Proto-Indo-European ‘*deus’: Similarity in Religious Ideas and a Common Source in Linguistics” (Zhou 2005).
    the Huang Di people(or nation) means emperor tribe which I think chinese called the bronze people. More intersting thing is korean pronounce Old Chinese ‘帝’ as Je, like Jeus in Greek, which means king.
    I think korean has not loaned the words from chinese, but altai nomad of N1c or Q1a1, b/c one chinese character is one syllable w/o exception in korea now. In china, one chinese character is one or two syllable. Likewise one chinese character is one or two syllable in japan, b/c they learned it from korean scholar around 4 century.

    P.s

    really big almod eyes with gold mask

    http://www.ancient-origins.net/unexp...history-001495

    Last edited by johen; 03-08-2018 at 08:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    the Huang Di people(or nation) means emperor tribe which I think chinese called the bronze people. More intersting thing is korean pronounce Old Chinese ‘帝’ as Je, like Jeus in Greek, which means king.
    I think korean has not loaned the words from chinese, but altai nomad of N1c or Q1a1, b/c one chinese character is one syllable w/o exception in korea now. In china, one chinese character is one or two syllable. Likewise one chinese character is one or two syllable in japan, b/c they learned it from korean scholar around 4 century.
    皇帝 (Mandarin huŠngdž, Cantonese wong4 dai3, Korean 황뎨 hoangdyey > 황제 hwangje, Japanese 漢音 kan-on i.e. "Han pronunciation" kwautei > kōtei or 呉音 go-on i.e. "Wu pronunciation" waudai > ōdai, Vietnamese hoàng đÍ́) means "emperor" or, in archaic texts, something like "(Supreme/Primary) God, Deus, Lord of Heaven." The Japanese kan-on reading sounds like a medieval Japanese person's attempt to approximate a proto-Mandarin reading of the characters, whereas the Japanese go-on reading sounds like a medieval Japanese person's attempt to approximate a proto-Cantonese reading of the characters. In this word's case, the Mandarinesque kan-on pronunciation is the only one that is actively used in modern Japanese speech. The 皇 character appears to consist of 白 "white" above 王 "king," and is generally glossed as "royal, imperial, ruler, superior, emperor, sovereign; great, grand." It also refers to deities in ancient myths and legends, and it is used in honorific terms for ancestors, e.g. someone's deceased father. It is homophonous with 黄 "yellow" (q.v.), 凰/䳨 (also written as 羽 "feathers, wing" above 王 "king") "female phoenix (or rather the female of a certain chimaeric creature from Chinese mythology)," 煌 "brilliant, bright, shining, luminous," 惶 "fearful, afraid, anxious, nervous," 遑 "leisure, leisurely; hurry about, hastily, in a hurry" (because anything can mean its opposite, right?), 徨 "doubtful, irresolute, vacillating," 璜 "a semicircular jade ornament used as a pendant," 簧 "a reed of a woodwind instrument," 磺 "sulphur, brimstone," 蝗 "locust, grasshopper," 潢 "marsh, swamp," 篁 "bamboo grove; bamboo," 隍 "dry ditch, dry moat," etc.

    黄帝 (Mandarin huŠng dž, Cantonese wong4 dai3, Korean 황뎨 hoangdyey > 황제 hwangje, Japanese kan-on kwautei > kōtei, Vietnamese Hoŗng Đế) is the so-called "Yellow Emperor" of Chinese national foundation mythos. This is usually treated as a proper noun and is written with a different character (黄 "yellow, sallow") although it is homophonous with the aforementioned common noun for "emperor" or "God."

    Modern Korean 帝 제 je is descended from Late Middle Korean 帝 뎨 dyey and is the regular development in the Korean language of the Korean rendition of a proto-Mandarin type of Chinese reading for the character (which in Mandarin Chinese itself has developed into ). There is nothing irregular about it at all; the number of such loan morphemes in the Korean language is essentially equal to the number of characters in a Korean dictionary of Chinese characters (excluding variant characters for writing an identical morpheme, of course).
    Last edited by Ebizur; 03-09-2018 at 04:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post

    黄帝 (Mandarin huŠng dž, Cantonese wong4 dai3, Korean 황hoangdyey > 황제 hwangje, Japanese kan-on kwautei > kōtei, Vietnamese Hoŗng Đế) is the so-called "Yellow Emperor" of Chinese national foundation mythos. This is usually treated as a proper noun and is written with a different character (黄 "yellow, sallow") although it is homophonous with the aforementioned common noun for "emperor" or "God."
    .
    How do you pronounce" dai"? Is it two syllables or one? Huang is two sounds, right?

    Korean 뎨(dyey) is one syllable(one sound). Korean황(hoang) is also one syllable. As far as I know, korean often pronounces chinese two vowel sounds as one vowel, which means to pronounce complicatedly like hungarian.

    I don’t know a proto-Mandarin type of Chinese reading for the character, but di or dai seem to originate in tee. The chinese author I quote compares “Old Chinese ‘帝*tees’ to deus, mentioning the Huang Di
    I just think ancient people might not pronuonce tee or Di(simple one sound) to korean 뎨dyey(complicate one sound), nor chinese dai(two sounds) to 뎨(one sound).

    But I do not ignore your opinion. It doesn't matter to me.
    Last edited by johen; 03-10-2018 at 02:56 AM.

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    Funny how the horse is upended by a study or a finding, but humans oh no we don't got there.

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    It is a pity they did not include a modern haplogroup R in their mtDNA tree as this is the most basal and we could see if the Botai Borly sub clade was really as basal as it looks in the diagrams. I know that sample 151 KT75775 is in position Pre A'Q as defined by the domestic horse mtDNA tree Domtree 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    1. As far as I know, sintashta, east scythian, aryan and bronze china horse were same horses.
    This one would be aryan horse:
    http://www.ourglobaltrek.com/wp-cont...ajuraho-10.jpg

    particularly, engravings denoting the horse in Chinese oracle-bone inscriptions, it was the wild Przhevalsky horse (Mair 1998). Its range in the historical period embraced the whole of the Eurasian steppes, including Mongolia. The Przhevalsky horse is untamable.
    The Origin of the Indo-Iranians, Kuz'mina, ‎J. Mallory
    Is the following statement true?
    In verse I.162.18, the Rigveda describes the horse as having 34 ribs (17 pairs), while the Central Asian horse has 18 pairs (36) of ribs.
    This means that the horse described in the Vedas is the native Indian breed (with 34 ribs) and not the Central Asian variety.
    Last edited by johen; 03-26-2018 at 11:58 PM.

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    It is really fascinating that domestic horses (as used by Central asian nomads in history) do not descend from Botai horses.
    Of all the countries, this is possibly the most beautiful. All that is beautiful and can be rarely seen in
    other countries can be seen everywhere here... Here live the people who wear the cleanest clothes and prepare the
    most flavorful dishes... Of all of Godís servants, the local people are the most compassionate and merciful...

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