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Thread: What is the relationship between South Indian Dravidians and Austro-Asiatic Tribals?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmoney View Post
    If the Munda people are marked by y-Hap O2a1 then they actually came more recently than we think from SE Asia - around the same time ANI and ASI started mixing or slightly earlier

    A serial decrease in expansion time from east to west: 5.7  0.3 Kya in Laos, 5.2  0.6 in Northeast India, and 4.3  0.2 in East India, suggested a late Neolithic east to west spread of the lineage O2a1-M95 from Laos.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...12147/abstract
    According to YFull v6.01,

    R1a1a1b2-Z93 formed 5000 ybp, TMRCA 4800 ybp
    O1b1a1a1b1a-B426 formed 5800 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp

    In other words, there does not appear to be any significant difference in age between the major South Asian subclade of Y-DNA haplogroup R1a and the major South Asian subclade of haplogroup O1b1 (formerly O2a).

    However, members of basal subclades of R-Z93 have been found in Europe (the British Isles, Italy, Poland, Sweden, etc.) and in the vicinity of the Altai Mountains in southern Siberia. In my opinion, the MRCA of R-Z93 who is estimated by YFull to have lived approximately 4800 ybp probably was a member of the culture whose archaeological remains have been identified as the Poltavka culture, subsequently spreading eastward across the Eurasian steppe to produce a sequence of archaeological cultures, including Srubnaya, Sintashta, and Andronovo.

    Likewise, O1b1a1a1b1a-B426 is not strictly limited to Munda peoples or to South Asia; members of this clade also have been found in a Konda Dora and in Tripura (an area which historically has been dominated by a Tibeto-Burman tribe rather than a Munda one), Myanmar, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malays in Singapore, and Indonesia (at least on the island of Java). One of its sister clades, O1b1a1a1b1c-B418 (formed 5800 ybp, TMRCA 5200 ybp) has been found in Borneo, Java, Singapore, and a Gond in Madhya Pradesh, so it may be more common among mainstream western Austronesians than among Austroasiatics, although it has been found as far west as central India. Another sister clade, O1b1a1a1b1b-Z39485 (formed 5800 ybp, TMRCA 5300 ybp), has been found in Thai (Dai) and Tibeto-Burman (Yi) ethnic people in southwestern China.

    Wells et al. (2001) have reported finding O-M95 in 1/46 = 2.2% Sourashtran, 1/84 = 1.2% Kallar, and 1/129 = 0.8% (as well as 1/129 = 0.8% O-M122) "Yadhava." Hammer et al. (2006) have reported finding 1/91 = 1.1% O-M95 in a sample from Sri Lanka. Firasat et al. (2007) have found O-PK4 (which subsumes O-M95) in 4/96 = 4.2% and O-M122 in 1/96 = 1.0% of a sample of Pathans (i.e. Pashtuns) from Pakistan. Fornarino et al. (2009) have found O-M95 in 4/37 = 10.8% Tharu in Morang District of southeastern Nepal, alongside 7/37 = 18.9% O-M117 in the same sample. In the same study, O-M95 and O-M117 were each found in 1/29 = 3.4% of a sample of "tribals from Andhra Pradesh." Brucato et al. (2018) have reported finding O2a-M95 in 1/60 = 1.7% of a sample of Swahili people from Kilifi, Kenya. Members of the clade also seem to be present among Arabs in Saudi Arabia and Yemen (and perhaps also in Oman and the United Arab Emirates). Hurles et al. (2005) have found O-M95(xM88) in 7/22 = 31.8% Banjarmasin (southern Borneo), 14/65 = 21.5% Kota Kinabalu (northern Borneo), 6/35 = 17.1% Malagasy (Madagascar), 1/21 = 4.8% Kapingamarangi (a Polynesian outlier located just north of the equator and also, at a greater distance, north of Bougainville Island), and 1/25 = 4.0% Western Samoa.

    In summary, the predominant Y-DNA lineage among Munda peoples also has been found not only among Cambodians and Vietnamese (as might be expected according to their postulated common linguistic roots), but also among modern "Malay"-type (mainstream western Austronesian) people, a Dravidian-speaking tribal (Konda Dora), and probably also among Tibeto-Burmans in Tripura and Myanmar. Members of the same or closely related clades also have been found among speakers of other Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, Eastern Iranic (Pashtun), Arabic, Bantu (Swahili), and Austronesian (Malagasy, Polynesian) languages. However, for the most part, there seems to have been quite little recent male-mediated gene flow from Munda peoples to Dravidians or Aryans; the extent of recent male-mediated gene flow from Munda peoples to Tibeto-Burmans remains to be clarified.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebizur View Post
    ........
    Zhao et al 2009 studied 5 groups from Uttar Pradesh. Bhargavs, Chaturvedis and Shias all showed 2.0 - 2.3% O, Sunnis showed 2.9% and Brahmins 4.2%. No subclades were mentioned though.
    Fornarino et al found 10.8% O2a among Eastern Tharus and 3.4% among Andhra Tribals. O3 was much higher in Tharus. But among Hindu groups, Terai Hindus(Madhesi perhaps) showed O3 at 3.8% and New Delhi Hindus at 2%.
    Sharma et al found 3.3% among Maharastra Brahmins, 3.7% among Bihar Paswans. Among tribes, UP Kols at 41% and Gonds at 6-8%.

    Sapporo here shared this document
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...kDc/edit#gid=0
    According to which one Jatt Sikh sample is O2a*

    Though sporadic among larger groups, O lineages can be expected throughout the subcontinent. If I'm not wrong, there was a theory of IVC people being Asutro-Asiatic speakers. If they were indeed O2a then probably in history, they were much more numerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    Significant parts of Eastern India still speak Austro-Asiatic languages (Munda, etc). There is a decent chunk of Southeast Asian DNA in India concentrated mainly in the east and south.
    Thanks, but I meant, what's the evidence for them being earlier?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    Significant parts of Eastern India still speak Austro-Asiatic languages (Munda, etc).
    According to 2001 census, Austro-asiatic speakers are only significant in the states of Jharkhand(Mundari speakers) with around 16% speakers and Meghalaya(Northeast India) with 47% speakers (of Khasi language). In rest of the Indian states it stays below 3%. Austroasiatic speakers are scattered throughout India except in deepest south and NW however might have covered those regions historically. There are pockets in Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Odisha, West Bengal and Assam.
    Last edited by SpinosaurusN3H1; 02-26-2018 at 04:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post
    According to 2001 census, Austro-asiatic speakers are only significant in the states of Jharkhand(Mundari speakers) with around 16% speakers and Meghalaya(Northeast India) with 47% speakers (of Khasi language). In rest of the Indian states it stays below 3%. Austroasiatic speakers are scattered throughout India except in deepest south and NW however might have covered those regions historically. There are pockets in Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Odisha, West Bengal and Assam.
    There are even a few in Northwest India? That's surprising. What AA languages are spoken in NW India?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    There are even a few in Northwest India? That's surprising. What AA languages are spoken in NW India?
    I think Uttar pradesh and uttrakhand is being lumped with NW India.
    Deg Teg Fateh - Victory to Charity and Arms

    Punjab, Punjabi, Fateh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    Not sure how this holds up in formal scientific studies, but Dravidian tribals seem to have as much Iran Neolithic as they have Yamnaya. Of course this assumes there was truly the ASI population devoid of any West Eurasian like ancestry.
    Probably at the time ASI ancestors split from Basal to before they started admixing again.


    Moorjani, Reich et al.: "A possible explanation is a secondary wave of mixture in the history of many Indo-European groups, which would decrease the estimated admixture date."

    Using 25 years per generation (they use 29 which I think is too much for the past):
    Admixture occurred 2700ybp for Dravidians.
    And, 1800 ybp for Indo-Aryans.

    Two major admixture events are needed to support the data:


    Both admixture events clearly postdate formation of Indus settlements (Bhirrana 9500ybp).

    So early Indus by that logic had to be either ASI or ANI.

    The admixture into Dravidians 2700ybp looks to be after the Indus collapse.

    The admixture into Indo-Aryans looks to be in the historical Kushan period.
    Last edited by parasar; 02-26-2018 at 06:20 PM.

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  10. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    There are even a few in Northwest India? That's surprising. What AA languages are spoken in NW India?
    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    I think Uttar pradesh and uttrakhand is being lumped with NW India.
    I didn't say NW India, I said "except" Deepest South and NW India "however" might have covered those regions historically. Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand are most of the time considered North India or Central India by different Indian Govt. definitions. There is no NW India definition by Indian Govt that I know of.

    In Uttar Pradesh, we have Korwa and Kodaku languages and in Uttarakhand Austro-asiatic Kolis used to live. There are some groups in south(Andhra) and west(Maharastra)

    By "however might have covered those regions historically", I'm assuming that Austro-Asiatics perhaps lived in Indus Plain as well. There was a theory on IVC being Austro-Asiatic.
    Sapporo's doc had a Jatt Sikh with Y-DNA O2a* which is an Austro-Asiatic marker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpinosaurusN3H1 View Post
    I didn't say NW India, I said "except" Deepest South and NW India "however" might have covered those regions historically. Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand are most of the time considered North India or Central India by different Indian Govt. definitions. There is no NW India definition by Indian Govt that I know of.

    In Uttar Pradesh, we have Korwa and Kodaku languages and in Uttarakhand Austro-asiatic Kolis used to live. There are some groups in south(Andhra) and west(Maharastra)

    By "however might have covered those regions historically", I'm assuming that Austro-Asiatics perhaps lived in Indus Plain as well. There was a theory on IVC being Austro-Asiatic.
    Sapporo's doc had a Jatt Sikh with Y-DNA O2a* which is an Austro-Asiatic marker.
    Not sure about Uttarkhand kolis and their language, but Sonbhadra is adjacent to the core AA lands, and next adjacent is Mirzapur.
    Linquists also consider Gandak, Gandhar, Ganga etc. to be AA names.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Probably at the time ASI ancestors split from Basal to before they started admixing again.


    Moorjani, Reich et al.: "A possible explanation is a secondary wave of mixture in the history of many Indo-European groups, which would decrease the estimated admixture date."

    Using 25 years per generation (they use 29 which I think is too much for the past):
    Admixture occurred 2700ybp for Dravidians.
    And, 1800 ybp for Indo-Aryans.

    Two major admixture events are needed to support the data:


    Both admixture events clearly postdate formation of Indus settlements (Bhirrana 9500ybp).

    So early Indus by that logic had to be either ASI or ANI.

    The admixture into Dravidians 2700ybp looks to be after the Indus collapse.

    The admixture into Indo-Aryans looks to be in the historical Kushan period.
    Thats not possible ,for very simple reasons. NO large urbanized civilization with large populations is going to be a monolith, its going to be diverse, its not Mesolithic Europe, with scant populations. Also the Pania like ancestry found in Southern Iranians is not recent, some mtdna clades of M are archaic and have been found to specific to the Iranian plateau. In the same way Barcin farmers absorbed extra WHG once in Europe in the Neolithic, the same can easily be inferred for those early Neolithic Iranians in Balochistan. Also those admixture dates are not a good marker . Those Horner like samples from Tanzania pretty much proved that ie they found Horner like woman all the way down in Tanzania, and she was older than 3Kya date given for admixing. So you have Luxmunda types and Mota types existing in the same period.

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